30-12-2003 05:10									#31
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Jam: What?

	30-12-2003 06:36									#32
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quote: See Maniac?

quote: Jam: What?

Yes, it's indeed a disgrace what Drogue is writing!

	30-12-2003 06:37									#33
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Yes "Drogue" is very naughty

-Jam

	30-12-2003 18:27									#34
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What I meant was, was the "See Maniac?" meant for me, asking to me look at Maniac's post, or was it for Maniac, telling him to look at my position

	30-12-2003 19:00									#35
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It was "See, Maniac", an imperitive directed to Maniac that he should see. Obviously

-Jam

	30-12-2003 19:22									#36
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quote: The only consistant things are either having a total ban or having the option of joining the conquering faction, who capture their bases and so capture their population. Quota's were a compromise, but one that isn't particularly realistic. It can understand the argument that we aren't flush for players, but we have enough, IMHO. That is why I think either a total ban, as per defections, or joining the conqueror.

I completely agree with Drogue's position.

And I disagree with Voltaire's. IMHO it should not be allowed for one member to tell important gameplay information to another faction without general consent in the member's own faction that it is allowed. Though this would of course give a new and very interesting perspective to the political and diplomatic side of the game, the current format does not make this workable IMHO. Why? Because, since every member has access to the turn, everyone can see all information; and because all plans are openly discussed in the private forum (at least in the CyCon). Unlike in real-life political situations, it is almost impossible to hide any important information from possible infiltrators and spies. So this ACDG can only work decently if the members of a faction can trust each other and don't have to be on their guard all the time that one of them could tell something important to a rival faction.

I would actually like a game very much where you can have factions within factions, and can hide information from other members in your faction, as that would allow for some very fun political roleplaying. But unless we can somehow arrange that, individual members telling confidential info to other factions is a big

quote: Allowing players to join other teams also allow them to setup a government-in-exile in a friendly state

What would be the point of that? If a human faction is eliminated, it can never be revived anyway.

	30-12-2003 20:28									#37
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Who knows, may be one faction could give that faction a base?

	31-12-2003 06:14									#38
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We're playing Alien Crossfire, aren't we? Have you forgotten the ability of a probe team to free captured faction leaders?

	31-12-2003 06:22									#39
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Then they cannot join another faction, or they would not be allowed to defect back. They are still members of their faction until the end of the game, because their faction may rise again?

	31-12-2003 06:23									#40
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Does this work in PBEM? Can someone confirm it? If this is the case, all eliminated factions will be put on ice.

-Jam

	31-12-2003 06:25									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue Then they cannot join another faction, or they would not be allowed to defect back. They are still members of their faction until the end of the game, because their faction may rise again?

They'd be pretty entwined with the faction that freed them, but I'd say that's as it should be; after all, when an AI is freed, it swears a Pact to serve whoever freed it.

	31-12-2003 06:30									#42
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quote: Who knows, may be one faction could give that faction a base?

Then that faction still lives, and there's no need to make them member of a new faction.

quote: We're playing Alien Crossfire, aren't we? Have you forgotten the ability of a probe team to free captured faction leaders?

Nope. It's just that if a human faction is destroyed the normal way by another faction, the game doesn't work anymore or so. The solution to that is that a faction must obliterate their last base themselves. But then of course, that faction wasn't destroyed by its conqueror and the leader cannot be freed.

	31-12-2003 06:31									#43
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Ah.... that's a shame, I didn't think of that.

-Jam

	31-12-2003 06:31									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Nope. It's just that if a human faction is destroyed the normal way by another faction, the game doesn't work anymore or so. The solution to that is that a faction must obliterate their last base themselves. But then of course, that faction wasn't destroyed by its conqueror and the leader cannot be freed.

Oh, I see. I didn't know that.

	31-12-2003 11:19									#45
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How about we don't ask them to obliterate the last base, and make it a prison or something, so they are still a team, but they need to sware a pact to the conquering team?

	31-12-2003 11:34									#46
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This issue has come up before in the Civ3 PTW Multi Site Team Democracy Game. At this point, three teams have been eliminated from the game entirely.

The solution reached was that players from destroyed civs would be allowed to join any other team they pleased, no questions asked. This is the most simple, and in my humble opinion, best option. No matter what, you're going to get some old information from the team spread around a bit from refugees. Why fight it?

	31-12-2003 17:24									#47
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Sensible, and tested.

-Jam

	31-12-2003 21:03									#48
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OctavianX

quote: The solution reached was that players from destroyed civs would be allowed to join any other team they pleased, no questions asked. This is the most simple, and in my humble opinion, best option. No matter what, you're going to get some old information from the team spread around a bit from refugees. Why fight it?

99 posts later.

We the pirates be happy to take any human refuges.

After all what are the Pirates anyway but a bunch of foul %36&* mouthed scroundrels gathering of decent people who escaped from the intolerance and authoritarianism of class ridden nations.

Yeah we'd welcome any full human refugees, if they can sing shanties and pass our cursing test.

	05-01-2004 03:22									#49
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Arr Darn! Shanties? I'll never pass that one! arrgghh

	05-01-2004 05:39									#50
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I'll go with it, since most people seem to agree, but think ti could unbalance things, since the losing faction will try to skew all the other factions againsty their captors, in a way that wouldn't if they weren't accepted.

	05-01-2004 13:37									#51
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What do you think would happen IRL? The governing elite of the defeated party would flee to whoever accepted them, and would then begin agitating for the recapture of their country so they could have it back. After all, look at Cuba.

	06-01-2004 00:23									#52
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Have it back? They would still be members of the new faction.

For example, say the CyCon defeat PEACE, and PEACE members all flock to the Hive (their pactmates who are open to new players). The Hive may be peaceful and have good intentions to us before that, but due to PEACE's grudge against us for the war, their position will be more anti-CyCon than it otherwise would be. If enough of them moved, we may find ourselves in a situtation where other factions attack us, not because their current members want to, but because of the grudge PEACE have against us.

Add to that the knowledge that they will gain. Use the above example, the Hive would have PEACEs old maps, they would be able to launch an attack far more accuratly because of that, while we would not have their map. The Hive would gain information and maps from PEACE that they would otherwise not have, which combined with them being against more due to the ex-PEACE members influence, is a nasty combination.

If the other factions dislike our actions towards PEACE and wish to take action, that is obviously their right, and was a risk with the war. However if PEACE members join, that will be a far far more extreme reaction, since PEACE (naturally) would hold a grudge against their victors.

In RL, most of them would not be able to escape to join any faction of their choosing, especially without maps of other factions.

Suppose this happens: The CyCon take all but the last PEACE base and leave them with it. Because of defections, they cannot join another faction, but will likely play little more part in the game. Game rules are that to defeat a faction, they have to destroy their last base. Suppose they were to do that, and we were to say that we did not intend to attack/capture it? They have no faction, but have not been defeated, since we were trying not to defeat them. Would they be allowed to join another faction? This ruling would give them an incentive to destroy their last base, even though we wanted not to attack it, since they then get to join a stronger faction. It also gives the attackers an incentive to leave them with one base, so that other factions are not skewed against them.

IMHO, changing faction skews the game, whether it's before or after a faction is defeated. I would like the same ruling to apply to both. Either defections are allowed, or post-mortem defections are banned. That's my personal opinion.

	06-01-2004 04:07									#53
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The problem with allowing defections is you may end up with the defector sabotaging his original faction. Whereas people choosing a new faction after they have lost theirs cannot sabotage their faction which is already destoried. The effect on a third faction, in the case of new team choosing, while likely has not the same magnitude of effect as a real defection has on its current team.

Consequently, defections should be viewed as a completely seperate issue to defeated faction members choosing a new team. The issues can not be grouped together.

	06-01-2004 04:08									#54
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The Hive can conquer planet without being told to do so by a bunch of Xenorun-swilling potty mouths.

Hey I have an idea....
How about defeated people start stuffing up contributing to that ACPSG we have going?

	06-01-2004 04:50									#55
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I understand where Drogue is coming from, but... I think the people are what make the game fun, and are the most valuable resource (only resource, really). It would be a shame to lose anyone. Worries about one or two active refugees swaying an entire faction... that's really a sad comment on the inactivity of that faction. If a team has that little "will" to generally hold its course with new members, it was at serious risk of collapse anyway (which I'm pretty sure no one wants). In other words, refugees might save the game.

I agree with Kody's point that there is a big difference between refugees and defectors.

Regarding the timing of this thread... IMHO CyCon should've asked for the question to be settled before going to war-- their decision was based on incomplete information, which is something they'll have to live with. If war hurts them more than they expected... tough.

Also, an argument could be made that two warring factions are biased in this discussion and should recuse themselves? (Just a thought... don't take that part too seriously.)

Last edited by jtsisyoda on 06-01-2004 at 05:00

	06-01-2004 06:33									#56
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quote: Originally posted by jtsisyoda Worries about one or two active refugees swaying an entire faction... that's really a sad comment on the inactivity of that faction. If a team has that little "will" to generally hold its course with new members, it was at serious risk of collapse anyway (which I'm pretty sure no one wants). In other words, refugees might save the game.

Considering the CyCon is run almost entirely by 4 people (Myself, Maniac, Impaler and (to a lesser extent - he is not an official) Lauri) 2 people coming in would swing it greatly. I don't know how other factions are.

quote: Regarding the timing of this thread... IMHO CyCon should've asked for the question to be settled before going to war-- their decision was based on incomplete information, which is something they'll have to live with. If war hurts them more than they expected... tough.

I have to say, I presumed it would be like defectors, since the effect of both is largely on a 3rd party faction, IMHO. I had no inkling it would be a different rule at all. I didn't know there was a question to ask.

Also, no-one has answered my questions about destroying the last base. Could we leave their last base so they cannot join another faction? Could a faction decide to destroy all it's bases and join another faction? Are other factions allowed to access the save files of the old faction?

	06-01-2004 07:17									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue Could a faction decide to destroy all it's bases and join another faction?

Well if a faction voluntarily obliterates its bases and all its inhabitants out of its free will, they can hardly claim they're still alive enough to join another faction.

	06-01-2004 07:29									#58
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Exactly. But they have to obliterate their last base. If we don't want to take it, can they destroy it, as it's their last base, and join another faction? I say no, since they have destroyed it themselves. I think the conquering faction should have to ask for them to destroy it, or ask Googlie, and give him their plans, and then if Googlie thinks the base will go that turn, they have to destroy it. Else they could simply destroy it early and move faction, when it may not be taken, or they could claim it won't be taken and not destroy it, meaning we all lose a turn after them IIRC.

Last edited by Drogue on 06-01-2004 at 07:39

	06-01-2004 07:43									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue I think the conquering faction should have to ask for them to destroy it, or ask Googlie, and give him their plans, and then if Googlie thinks the base will go that turn, they have to destroy it. Else they could simply destroy it early and move faction, when it may not be taken, or they could claim it won't be taken and not destroy it, meaning we all lose a turn after them IIRC.

I agree with the rest of your post, but what does this mean?

	06-01-2004 19:43									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue Considering the CyCon is run almost entirely by 4 people (Myself, Maniac, Impaler and (to a lesser extent - he is not an official) Lauri) 2 people coming in would swing it greatly. I don't know how other factions are.

The Hive has 'bout 8 active members