25-12-2003 07:09									#1
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Now that War has broken out it's appropriate to discuss how defeated factions' players get redistributed among the survivors.

So post thoughts here, and I'll kick off with an opinion, (not a ruling)

I think that Faction Officers and turnplayers should be required to join the conquering faction, but that ordinary "citizens" should be able to join any faction of their choice.

Of course, whether such players choose to become inert (or ert, for that matter) cannot be legislated.

Thoughts everyone??

G.

	25-12-2003 07:38									#2
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I believe it would make more sense for the higher ranking faction members to be allowed to move to the faction of their choice (Seeking asylum), while the regular members are redistributed at random amongst all other factions (When you're fleeing, unless you've got special resources [al. la. what the leaders would have], you can't exactly be choosy about where you're going).

	25-12-2003 09:10									#3
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It would seem to me that Googlies sugjestion is more consistent with the Games plot line. When ever you eliminate a Faction they always say "(Insert Faction Leader) is ready for your personal Interogation" and we see them in a Punishment Sphere locked screaming. Sertainly dosn't seem to me that they have much special resorces avalible at this point.

I think that the important part is that the Concouring team or teams get the bulk of the eliminated teams members say around half with the other half being distributed. It would be most unfair for all the eliminated players to simply be alowed to join a team that was their alie and to basicaly have a second chance as what would amount to a Double team. Their needs to be in principle a break up of the team in any event with the Concourer getting the lions share of any players who wish to continue playing. That said, we should try to be acomadating to the desires of individuals to the maximum extent possible without creating any kind of unfair situation.

Cycon would be glad to have several of PEACE's core membership after our inevitable conquest is completed. We are prepared to make them full fleged member of our team as we would hope they would do for us if the situation was reversed. We would ofcorse expect them to cough up information regarding the other factions and their dealings with them (which again is consistent with "Interogating" someone with a Punishment Sphere). Gaining access to their forums though seems unlikly, But thats a matter for Google to deside.

	25-12-2003 14:29									#4
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If a faction leader has been taken prisoner, they can hardly be considered to be a member of the conquering faction... after all, membership implies at least some degree of standing and government influence, which one could hardly have while being pumped for information in the Punishment Sphere.

Anyway, regarding the issue of conquered factions, I think a better way to treat it would simply be to let the members of the loser go wherever they want, unless they have made a prior agreement with the conquering faction (a kind of surrender agreement; we might even see some factions choosing to effectively merge with the conquerer by sharing forums and divulging passwords).

	26-12-2003 07:00									#5
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I think another team getting information when a faction is defeated goes against the spirit of the game. If we conquer PEACE and PEACE members were to flee to another faction and help them, that is giving them a boost they are not entitled to, IMHO. I would be against that.

Seeing the shortage of players, I don't want to say they should just lose, however I think if the conquering faction decides they want them, they should be allowed to join them, as if they have been captured.

Or Googlie could roll a dice for each member, to simulate chance of escape, and those that roll as 5 or 6 have escaped and can join another faction. Those that don't can join their capturing faction, if they wish and that faction agrees, and if not they can leave.

I prefer the first option. I see them joining another faction as the same as defections. We have banned defections because of the effect it has on the game. I see this as the same. While I can see the logic in allowing the captors to allow members of the captured society to join them, as they are captured, I am strongly against them being allowed freely back into the game in any faction. That is like defections en masse, in it's consequences, and thus should not be allowed IMHO.

	26-12-2003 07:09									#6
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The reason defections were not allowed is because the defector would know all the original factions secrets...
However this does ont apply here because a PEACE member wouldn't know all of CyCons secrets.

	27-12-2003 01:24									#7
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How about this. The capturing faction gets the first chance to talk to the team members of the defeated teams. They can offer sweet deals to exchange informations and to pursuade the defeated team members to stay. For example a defeated faction leader can bargain to get a government position in exchange of sharing info or stay in the team. The rest of players can also choose to stay in the team. For those who do not want to stay, then they can be randomly distributed.

The thing is if all defeated team players are required to stay in the capturing team, they may not be willing to tell information anyway and they may not like to be a team member who defeated them. It may not be good for these players, nor for the capturing team either since it may create lots of tensions within the team.

	27-12-2003 04:52									#8
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HongHu: The team can then not allow them in. It doesn't have to create tension, and I don't want other factions getting an unfair advantage, it isn't realistic nor does it go with the game.

Also, that isn't having first chance. If someone offers a sweeter deal, they take it. Add to that that the defeated faction probably doesn't particularly like the faction attacking them, and they will decide mostly to join other factions. Also, we cannot bargain with a government position, since ours, and many other factions, are elected.

Tass: No, but they would have all the information that PEACE had. Therefore if a PEACE member were to join PUT, then PUT would have the old PEACE saves, and so would be able to have the infiltration information that PEACE had, even when PUT has not infiltrated those factions. In this case, the PUT should not have the information from PEACE pacts and infiltration, but they would have. That is unfair IMHO. That is why I think members from defeated factions would either have to join the conquering faction, as they have been captured then allowed to become normal citizens, or they would be captured and killed, and thus would take no more part. The game states that you capture the opposing faction leader, and they are ready for your interrogation. Therefore, if you wished to kill them, you could.

Most team-DG's I've seen work on the principle that when you faction is defeated, you are defeated, and like a PBEM, you no longer continue to take part in it. This stops other teams getting information they shouldn't have, and skewing the game.

Look at it this way. Imagine a faction is destroyed except for it's last base. Because of the defection rule, none of the members would be allowed to leave yet. Yet when that last base is taken they would all be allowed to. What is the difference? Why is that last base so important. Looking at it realistically, you would have captured/killed some of their members at earlier bases. Realistically, defections would be allowed. I don't see why just because that faction is destroyed other factions should be able to benefit from the infiltration info of the destroyed faction. RPing there is as much a case for defections as there is for them joining other factions when they're killed. Yet we don't allow defections because of the effect they have on the game. Hence, IMHO, we shouldn't allow them to join other factions because of the effect it has on the game, and also because if anyone, they would have been captured by the team that caught them.

	27-12-2003 06:04									#9
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quote: Most team-DG's I've seen work on the principle that when you faction is defeated, you are defeated, and like a PBEM, you no longer continue to take part in it.

Indeed. But since this ACDTG isn't suffering from an abundance of active participants, it is the official Consciousness opinion that we would prefer to give members of a conquered faction the option to join their conqueror. In our specific case, this can be perfectly explained by the process of assimilation.

A pity we haven't heard the opinion of a pirate yet.

	27-12-2003 06:47									#10
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You should not rule out members of a defeated faction joining a team other than their conquerer. It is mostly consistent with the mechanics of the game, and more importantly, entirely consistent with the spirit of the DG. The primary goal is to provide an enjoyable experience for all. This is best served by giving some choice in which faction to join.

Firstly, joining other factions is not unfair or inconsistent. PEACE could, if we wished, now broadcast all the information we have to any other faction. So how is it wrong to bring information with us to another faction? We didn't acquire any of it illegaly. I do agree that factions opening up old saves from a defeated faction is probably inappropriate, but as long as citizens don't ALL flee to the same faction, I see nothing unbalancing, unfair, or detrimental in it.

Secondly, If you force defeated members to either join the conquering team or leave, you will, as Maniac noted, not be helping an already low participant count. And of those that do agree to join the conquerers, undoubtedly some will still be sore at getting destroyed. This will neither be fun for the conquerors or the conquered, as, even if it isn't intentional or overt, every time there is disagreement over an action, there will be distrust and possibly even hostility on both sides.
Unless of course the conquerers are willing to accept and put up with a bunch of hostile uncooperative drones, which could be very interesting , (as long as everyone regards the adversity that must necessary result as purely IC. )

	27-12-2003 19:36									#11
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As a newer member of ACDG I realize there's lots of intercourse I've missed. From a fresh perspective then, there are two options regarding information from a defeated faction. The “the spoils of war” option would have the conquering faction being the sole beneficiary/recipient. The “the fog of war” option would have each faction gaining access to all the information. So, either all defeated faction players would have to joint the conquering faction or each faction would have to get at least one defeated faction player. Being that there is a shortage of active players, it’s most likely that option one would usually occur. So, the conquering faction would build information and active player momentum, and just run away with the game.

Therefore, a reasonable approach would be for the CMN to consult with all defeated faction players who choose to joint any of the other factions and determine what information should be passed on to all factions.

	27-12-2003 19:58									#12
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I would happily join the faction of anyone who was powerful enough to beat the mighty Hive.

-Jam

	27-12-2003 21:57									#13
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foolish_icarus, I agree the primary goal should be to provide an enjoyable experience for all, or at least for as many as possible. If conquered members with feelings of revenge can join another faction than their conqueror, this will increase the fun for those. However for the members of the conquering faction it would decrease the fun. After all if conquered people join other factions than thier conqueror because they don't like them, the conquered ones will probably try to influence the foreign relations of their new faction to act against their conqueror. Then the conqueror might suddenly be faced with declining relations with all other factions. That would not be desirable.
If the conquered members are spread evenly between all remaining faction, the risk of this is reduced, however in factions where there is currently a balance between Pro-Conquering Faction and Anti-Conqueror members, the addition of only one or two new people could already make a huge difference.

quote: Unless of course the conquerers are willing to accept and put up with a bunch of hostile uncooperative drones, which could be very interesting

Might be fun indeed! After all in RL conquerors also have to find some new modus vivendi with the conquered elites (unless they kill them all of course).


Net Warrior:

quote: So, the conquering faction would build information and active player momentum, and just run away with the game.

In our case, though we hope and expect to rise in the power graph, I doubt we're going to run away with this game just yet no matter what happens.

	28-12-2003 05:09									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Indeed. But since this ACDTG isn't suffering from an abundance of active participants, it is the official Consciousness opinion that we would prefer to give members of a conquered faction the option to join their conqueror. In our specific case, this can be perfectly explained by the process of assimilation.

I'd agree with that, if needs be. They have a stronger case for getting the infiltration of the defeated faction, in usuing their datalinks.

	28-12-2003 05:20									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac thier conqueror because they don't like them, the conquered ones will probably try to influence the foreign relations of their new faction to act against their conqueror. Then the conqueror might suddenly be faced with declining relations with all other factions. That would not be desirable.

I humbly submit you're going to take a nasty relations hit anyway. In a game like this, going after anybody but the leader militarily kind of generates badwill all of its own. Generally speaking, "hit the leader" is the only safe thing in multi-polar games for inter-fractional relation building

Given how few people are actually active, it would be a tragic waste to force the few remaining players out of the game - the information problem has an easy solution; make the pirates last save (I'm assuming here they will be taken out, since we've seen precious little swashbuckling in this here forum) available to everyone. That what happens when a faction goes down; it's citizens and its knowledge gets spread all over the world.

	28-12-2003 05:55									#16
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I disagree with moomin. Making the save open to everyone is the worst possible outcome. It gives everyone privilaged information, which is only deserved by those that have that infiltration anyway.

Also, I don't accept we will take a relations hit. We have explained previously our problems with PEACE to faction leaders, and on the whole, they seem to have been accepted. War is the logical choice after opinions made a decent relationship impossible. Most can see that. I don't accept that other factions have an opinion against us at all for this. Moreover, that will certainly increase if PEACE members join other factions. PEACE are naturally biased against us due to the war, and so would use foreign policy to try to harm us, exactly as Maniac described.

	28-12-2003 08:25									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue PEACE are naturally biased against us due to the war, and so would use foreign policy to try to harm us, exactly as Maniac described.

Which is competely unacceptable, after all. It is completely out of order for PEACE to attempt to harm another faction!

quote: Also, I don't accept we will take a relations hit.

You won't. Because you're going to lose.

	28-12-2003 21:40									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue Also, I don't accept we will take a relations hit. We have explained previously our problems with PEACE to faction leaders, and on the whole, they seem to have been accepted.

I respectfully disagree. It doesn't much matter what your particular casus belli is, the net outcome is that your war effort is helping the Hive, which is already well established on its way to victory. That consideration alone should have kept you from initiating these hostilities. You may or may not regain that respect if you manage to swing up the powergraph as a result of this vendetta, but if the Pirates play even half rational, what you get will be pretty worthless. Meanwhile, the Hive happily cranks out more units and is content to watch you do its dirty work w/out it having to switch from relentless economic growth to a war stance. I should think this will result in a pretty little hit to relations, no matter if you accept it or not.

	28-12-2003 21:43									#19
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quote: Originally posted by foolish_icarus You won't. Because you're going to lose.

That's the spirit, my lad! Show them just how unwelcome landlubbers are out on the open seas!

	28-12-2003 23:18									#20
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Lets try to stay on topic, this thread is for discussing the redistibution of players from an eliminated Faction. The current Cycon/PEACE war may have initiated the discussion but the ruling generated here will ofcorse aply to all future situations and will likly generate a precident for future Team Democracy games. The outcome of the current war and any political repercussions from it have no real bearing on this discussion.

We just want to come up with a Fair, Equitable and Realistic way to reintigrate players back into the game if their team is wiped out. If you asked me this issue should have been resolved when the game started, but likly you had lots of players at that point and did not see the need.

Here is another sugjestion.
Googlie PM's all the members of eliminated Faction and asks if they want to continue partisipating and if so with what team or if they are willing to join a team of Googlies choice. Googlie then comunicates the requests to the faction leaders to see which players would be accepted on the team. Then Googlie redistibutes the players, trying to give as many people their first choice, trying to send atleast half to the Concourer, and trying to spread the remainder evenly among the non-concoring teams. This will ocorse require a good deal of time on Googlies part to perform but I think it has a high probability of making as many people as possible happy.

	29-12-2003 01:53									#21
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I think the major problem may not be who gets the people. It is rathe who gets the information known to those people. Would it be entirely unrealistic to suggest that the previous saves of the defeated team should not be shared to any of the other factions?

Last edited by Snowflake on 30-12-2003 at 09:20

	29-12-2003 05:05									#22
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I would be agreeable to making previous saves offlimits for everyone, including the Concourers. I think forum access might also fall under that catagory.

I would say that the knowlage people can hold in their heads should be shared though, you cant realy tell someone NOT to act on what they realy know. Most of that knowlage would be of a diplomatic nature, like so and so did this in the past with us and so and so has a secret aliance ect ect.

	29-12-2003 06:09									#23
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quote: Originally posted by foolish_icarus Which is competely unacceptable, after all. It is completely out of order for PEACE to attempt to harm another faction!

That isn't what I said at all. What PEACE does is up to PEACE. However what, say, the Hive does is up to the Hive. If an ex-PEACE member joins the Hive, and changes the Hive policy to be anti-CyCon, then I have a problem. PEACE cvan do whatever it wishes, but of another faction accepts members from a defeated faction, it will change the policies of other factions, when in RP or what I believe is fair in game, it shouldn't do.

	29-12-2003 09:34									#24
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quote: However what, say, the Hive does is up to the Hive. If an ex-PEACE member joins the Hive, and changes the Hive policy to be anti-CyCon, then I have a problem. PEACE cvan do whatever it wishes, but of another faction accepts members from a defeated faction, it will change the policies of other factions, when in RP or what I believe is fair in game, it shouldn't do.

So you are saying that your actions should not have repercussions? That if you conquer a faction and some members join another team they are not allowed to voice or act on any views that go against the conquerers?

If a faction is defeated, and its members join other factions, the conqueror or another, they are entitled to pursue their wishes, both as players and as characters. If you wish to stifle or ignore their views, then oppress your members IC, but do not try to legislate game rules to enforce your faction's self interest.

quote: I would be agreeable to making previous saves offlimits for everyone, including the Concourers. I think forum access might also fall under that catagory. I would say that the knowlage people can hold in their heads should be shared though, you cant realy tell someone NOT to act on what they realy know. Most of that knowlage would be of a diplomatic nature, like so and so did this in the past with us and so and so has a secret aliance ect ect.

	29-12-2003 09:54									#25
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This is yet another reason the Concourer should recive the lions share of defeated players, the defeated players would have any hostility towards their Concourers canceled out by pure SELF INTEREST.

We have seen the Enemy and he is US!!

And if players that are distributed to other factions are keept thin and even, likly no more then 2 then the impact on thouse teams would likly be small enough to not radicaly change the forign policy of the faction that absorbs the players. Also considering that said faction is VOLUNTARILY absorbing new members its realy an issue internal to them if they want to have new people with a distinct "ajenda" join them.

	29-12-2003 10:25									#26
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That's the point. Cycon advocates that a conquering faction would assume half, or all, of the defeated players, but then at the same time seems to assume that such players, no matter which faction they end up belonging to, have no right to respond to agression.
Will new players ultimately seek the betterment of their faction?
Yes, IF they are able to match themselves to the faction that they feel comfortable with bettering.
That is the point, and indeed the fundamental mechanism of the Democracy Game, that individuals will have a continuing impetus to particate because, even if at the moment their will is not being carried through, the opportunity remains for them to influence policy. But if people are thrust into factions whose policies are irreconciliable with their own, especially with the conquered/conqueror dynamic, the dissidents can basically just be ignored, thereby eliminating them.
Because here we have so few teams, especially after the un-teaming of PUT, if e.g. PEACE is conquered by the Cycon, then undoubtedly Cycon will get some members. And that is fine. The principle remains the same, regardless of the size: The only workable way to reassign players is by what they themselves can handle, not some arbitrary quota.

	29-12-2003 10:56									#27
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Players will Fall into one of 5 catacories

1 - Dont want to continue playing in any Faction
2 - Want to Continue with the Concourer
3 - Want to Continue with a specific 3rd Faction in mind
4 - Want to continue with any random 3rd Faction
5 - Want to Continue but dont care what faction


1 - Obvously no one can make you play if you dont want to, could return the the game at some future point if they wish and be re-evaluated.

2 - Idealy what most people should do as its most consistent with Role Playing and reasistic "Spoils of War". If the Concourer were to ostrasize people then thats their own foolish mistake. Cycon sertanly won't ostrasize anyone who is a contributing and productive function.

3 - Distribute these folks as they wish (assuming they are accepted), but just see to it that their is atleast something limiting it, a few arn't to bad but the whole eliminated team should not get to swarm over to one of the other teams even if that team wants them. Perhaps limit the maximum number of players that a 3rd team can absorb to be equal to the number of players the Concourer recives.

4 - Assign these people to even out the distributions among 3rd Factions.

5 - Most of these if any should go to the Concourer or too evening out 3rd faction alocations if their is a need their.

	29-12-2003 15:20									#28
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I support allowing players to continue in other factions, but it must be pointed out that allow this possibly opens the doors to having treachery on the part of current players. For example a player from a falling faction might secretly share information with the enemy in exchange for favorable treatment (such as being appointed the administration of the conquered territories). Now personally I do not see a problem with this, I find it rather interesting. Allowing players to join other teams also allow them to setup a government-in-exile in a friendly state, all sorts of interesting things come about from allow it.

	30-12-2003 04:14									#29
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foolish_icarus: I'm not saying our actions shouldn't have repurcussions. Our actions will have repurcussions by whatever PEACE does, and also by the way other factions perceive it. However I see joining another faction as the same as defections. They shouldn't happen. I'm not trying to legislate to enforce our self interest. I'm saying that something that is banned in all other teams DGs I know of, and that I thought was banned at the start, should not be allowed.

I'm not assuming quotas, I'm assuming a total ban.

Voltaire: It is impossible in any democratic faction to have that. We cannot give someone a title in return for information, since everyone is elected.

The only consistant things are either having a total ban or having the option of joining the conquering faction, who capture their bases and so capture their population. Quota's were a compromise, but one that isn't particularly realistic. It can understand the argument that we aren't flush for players, but we have enough, IMHO. That is why I think either a total ban, as per defections, or joining the conqueror.

	30-12-2003 05:02									#30
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See Maniac?

-Jam