25-12-2003 11:35									#1
	CyCon v. PEACE Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Maybe I haven't paid enough attaintion, but what is our stance on the CyCon- PEACE war?

(If it's in the CGN forums, I haven't seen it. I'm not authorized.)

	25-12-2003 17:20									#2
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Neutral unless Cycon starts losing.

I also lack authorisation for those CivGaming forums.
Somebody set up us the post!

	26-12-2003 07:18									#3
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Since we have relatively good relations with both at the moment, we'd best just keep a neutral course.

	26-12-2003 11:55									#4
	Re: CyCon v. PEACE Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Vander Maybe I haven't paid enough attaintion, but what is our stance on the CyCon- PEACE war? (If it's in the CGN forums, I haven't seen it. I'm not authorized.)

Imbidiung In the Xmas cher I have yet to serioulsy consider it. (though know I should think of how we can profit it (did I join the Hive favtipon mistakin it was the Morgan one?)

I am not one of the heavy lifters (Kody help me out) in this (faction/forum/thing), but I think we consider what we can gain from ethier abstaining our allgnhing ourselves with one of the factions involved.


Blast this Scottish bevarge that bedivils me, but I think we need to figure our our reponse to to this war betwenn the Pirates and somebody (who is that who want so to fight them (if it's the Drones I juist say stuff them (the Drones)). If not then let's see.

Mead

PS



Yeah, he's slightlyu undr the influence of an Briuttish plot (beverage of northern UK distillment), but his observations of hpw we should view the new war for Hive betterment shoud be considered.
Please help me out.

When I regain the legal abilty to drive , and operate hevary machiney, I may be better able to decfe where we should stand in this war/dispute/thing.



Mead


PS


PS

Hopefulluy I can edit this away later when I am not under that influence of that Northern UK bevarge. Othjerwise, let me into Jamislky's priason cell to sleep it off.


Mead

	26-12-2003 14:16									#5
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quote: Hopefulluy I can edit this away later when I am not under that influence of that Northern UK bevarge. Othjerwise, let me into Jamislky's priason cell to sleep it off.

Okay I'll wait until after you're sober to reply to your message.

	27-12-2003 01:08									#6
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Well while we are emotionally closer to the CCs we are still a pactmate of the PEACE. So I believe the best way for us is as Enigma said, stay neutral. We will perhaps need more discussion if either PEACE or CC has any request of help from us. We have already indicated to CC that we will not be able to help with their war at this moment.

	27-12-2003 08:05									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Kody Okay I'll wait until after you're sober to reply to your message.

[Mead sheepishly reenters the room, hoping he didn't behave too badly, and wondering how much does everyone remember of what he said and did.]


So CC wants to fight the Pirates. Who do we want to win?

Like others have said, I think we should officially remain neutral (usually I like to avoid a war because of the waste of resources and disruption of building).

But, we should consider the effects of a diminished/eliminated Pirate faction and stronger CC if the CC wins (or vice versa).

As noted earlier, emotionally we are closer to the CC and them Pirates do seem to be more difficult to deal with, but we are better off with both factions still in the game.

I do not know who will win but based upon:

1. CC chose to start the war;
2. My sense of the general opinion expressed in the forums;
3. My review of just how weak the Pirates are militarily; (but most of the Pirate bases are still sea bases, how powerful is the CC navy?)

that CC will win the war and, if the war is not too long or hard, be a much stronger faction afterwards. It would be nice to see exactly how strong the CC is and will be if it wins.

Best outcome for us would be for CC and Pirates to fight a long drawn out war that both survive, allowing us to grow and profit.


Mead


[Mead hopes he has learned his lesson and vows to stick to xerorum... for at least the next few days. Mead hopes he didn't cause any production disruption of Hive construction by a diversion of police units from the drones to deal with his ... um ... celebration.]

	27-12-2003 09:36									#8
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Naw, our missilechops will own the CyCon.
Plus we'll probably be stomping Roze and the PUT anyway, thus gaining our own fair share of territory and all.

Unless we get a Cycon-Drones alliance to threaten us we're pretty safe.

As for the strength of the CyCon navy? They have Init and the Maritime Control Centre. Their navy is doing alright.

	27-12-2003 20:04									#9
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I think we should help the CyCon if they are losing and help the Pirates if they are losing. The longer the war goes on, the better for us. If they are building units instead of facs and bases and crawlers, then they'll only get behind. If one looks like winning then we must act against them. A single faction controlling the bases and territiory of the two factions will be quite dangerous.

-Jam

	28-12-2003 02:36									#10
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I find myself in agreement with Jamski in principle, we cannot let either side eliminate the other for fear that they may become too powerful (yah right), regardless we need to strike a balance and keep them fighting for as long as possible. But the support we give cannot be direct; we need to keep ourselves out of this conflict.

	28-12-2003 19:08									#11
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As I see it there are a number of options :

Do nothing with the result :
a) The war is just a short flash, nothing changes
b) One side wins some territiory at the cost of the other, small change in balance of power, no real worries.
c) One side is completly eliminated by the other, leaving the winners as one of the largest factions of Planet, with a large, trained and (probably) naval-transportable army, sitting around. DANGER!

Help the winning side with the results :
a) The war is over quickly, as the losing side surrenders. We and our allies make small gains.
b) The war takes some time, but we and our allies divide the losing faction and we increase our powerbase significantly, as do they, at the cost of ust raising an army and fleet.
c) We throw away our troops for no gain, while our "allies" take advantage of the distraction we caused.

We help the losing side with the results :
a) We prolong the war indefinitly, maintaining the status quo with little cost to us.
b) We drag Planet into a world war, as the Uni (for example) joins the opposing side in the name of balance. The Drones run away with the game.
c) Our intervention comes too late, and we have to deal with the winning side alone, who are mad with us.

Those are the most likely outcomes of our involvement or not in this war. Consider that the whole encounter will be naval based, and that we could take advantage of the pirates being absent to snap up a base or two for ourselves, without a formal alliance with the CyCon.

Consider also the price we could charge, either to help a faction, or as a bribe NOT to help the OTHER faction. Yummy techs, ecs and stuff

-Jam

	29-12-2003 01:37									#12
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How about this other possibility. CC overpowers the PEACE. We strike a deal with PEACE that they surrender the rest of their bases to us and we let them control the bases with a promise we will help them with the war with our full force. This is depending on we build up a strong military force during the CC-PEACE war, based on military techs that are supplied from the Drones. We will negotiate with CC to stop the war for PEACE had already surrendered to the Hive. If CC do not stop then we have reason to go against them and still keep our integrity. That again means we need to have our own strong military force first.

Most importantly, that means we have to speed up our research so that we (Hive and Drones) can get to Air Power and MMI quickly.

Also I see potential profit in dealing with CC before this all happens. If we can get the impact cruiser from them as they've agreed we may be better off for a sea-going war.

	29-12-2003 18:34									#13
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This is a daft suggestion. We SHOULD rush to the aid of the CyCon and try and grab as many of the Pirate bases as possible, which will give us a nice network of sea bases for our airstrikes vs the Uni in the future, as well as the tech the CyCon will give us (Impact Crusiers Yummy) We want to see the Pirates DEAD, and we should try and make sure that we get as many of their bases as we can. This means millitary action.

-Jam

	29-12-2003 18:41									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I just made a simple poll on this issue. Everyone should try and vote.

-Jam

	29-12-2003 19:14									#15
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Impact is already legacy hardware, and crusiers will be legacy too in another 4 turns. From the looks of things we'll finally get the prototypes in another 10 turns assuming our relations with the cycon go well which apparently it won't due to some recent incident that I haven't looked into much yet. In 10 turns time we might have missle choppers and drop troops.

Pirate bases are too far away for an chopper to travel in one turn and the travel time is longer in that direction to the university.

Earlier I wanted to see the pirates reduce in power because they were one of the most powerful factions and a threat to us. From the sounds of the commentary on the public forum that will change.

The main problem with invading the pirates is travel time. To take over bases we either need weapons+curiser or weapons+marine. Getting the unit prototypes to us will take 4 turns at least if the cycon agrees to divert part of their attacking force to us immediately. Then another 2 turns to build the army assuming we really sit down and plan the production the way I planned those earlier SPs. Then another 4-5 turns to get to the pirate bases.

If we wanted to mobilise to help the cycon with the invasion we should have started the preparations about 10 turns ago to be in a position that we would be able to significantly help.

Jamski can you answer one question? Why do you want to permi-pact with the cycon, and why don't you want to permi-pact with the drones?

Is it because you feel that the hive will end up submissive to the drones. Whereas the cycon are weaker and hence the hive will be the leading faction in a cycon-hive pact?

	30-12-2003 00:18									#16
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The question of permipacting with the CyCon and not with the Drones seems absurd, if we betray the Drones it would not be a permipact and hence how are we to be trusted again by another faction? Regardless, we will not betray the Drones, for the last time, get that throught your heads.

	30-12-2003 05:11									#17
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Then the Drones have already got YOU under control, dear Chairman. What did they offer you? A nice safe government post?

Our aim - to win.
Biggest enemy faction - the Drones
Question - do we attack them before they attack us?

Our best route to victory is a surpise attack conquering most of the Drones bases, while thier army is involved with a war elsewhere. It's standard SMAC stratagy to want to eliminate enemies close to home, and make friends far away.

The CyCon would be both very grateful, and take it very seriously as a sign of our commitment, if we were to break pact with the Drones for thier sake.

-Jam

	30-12-2003 05:32									#18
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I'm not going to take you seriously Jamski.

You know the reason why? Because you talk about breaking pact with the drones and then permi-pacting with the cycon. After we've conquored enough of the world, you'll want to break pact with the cycon and then have the hive as sole victor.

If you're going to actually talk seriously, say it as it is. You actually want the hive to be sole victor and you want to use the cycon then discard them later.

	30-12-2003 06:40									#19
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No, actually the CyCon is the only faction I feel we can trust not to stab us in the back and actually stick it through to a joint victory. Before the game started we dicussed this with the CyCon. Before the game started we also decided the Drones were Public Enemy #1.

Really Kody, we CAN'T sit and wait for the Drones to roll over and crush us.

-Jam

	30-12-2003 09:28									#20
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My personal feeling is that the Drones had taken serious considerations before they accept our perm pact proposal. I do not believe they are planning to backstab us. If it is the CCs I might believe it.

	30-12-2003 12:12									#21
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If the drones -are- going to backstab us, it will be right after they get Synth Fuels or Air power.

Simply put, we send our techs, they steal some from the Uni, and they've got Missile rovers / Plasma when we've got Laser rovers / Synth.
Then they will research Air Power.
Essentially they've got a very small window in which to invade and own us.

I'd send a request to the drones for Missile / Plasma units. If they don't cough up, Probe em for all they're worth, build our own army and grind em into the dust.

I trust the Drones, though.
That's not to say I can't be wrong...

	30-12-2003 19:12									#22
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The Drones are lead by Buster. He has been known to either stay true, or stab everyone to death in PBEM games. However, the Drones ARE a democracy. They could vote to destroy us, and then whatever Buster thinks is wurst.

I expect the Drones to go for the attack with missile noodles or with chaos choppers. And they will own us in perhaps 2 turns.

-Jam

	30-12-2003 22:38									#23
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CyCon v. Peace
We have reached an ultimatum

As of last turn, The CyCon have declared vedetta upon us, and have offered a pact in trade.
We're in this one way or another now guys.
Apparently the CyCon either wants us to help... or declares war!

	31-12-2003 02:08									#24
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As I said in another thread, the AI declared vendatta for us so it is not CC wants war with us. I'm adding this post here in case anybody will miss the other post. CC is in no postion of starting wars in two fronts. Don't worry. I believe the CCs want to be in pact with us for as long as it could. It will be to their own benefit.

	31-12-2003 02:19									#25
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I have trusted the Drones all along. However I have to admit that there exist an opportunity if they are going to backstab us.

They have got the governership. They've used us to get techs. After Drones get all techs and researches MMI, it can be a right time for them to wipe us out.

Drones know that uni is very weak. We had the CC offer of cruiser long ago. We didn't pursue it for buster wanted to wait till MMI. Do we really need MMI for the uni? Or do they need MMI for another faction (*us*)?

Since I have now told the CCs that it is unlikely we will perm pact with the CC if I were them I would start to plan for myself. In other words, I would expect the CC to look somewhere else. If CC decides to pact with uni, with the PEACE war effort they can get the restriction lifting techs, and switch to SFF. Uni's got SotHB and research Neural Grafting. They'll be well on the way to AirPower and MMI. That would mean we perhaps face a a real challenge from the CC uni pact.

Waiting till later to attack uni may or may not be our best choice. I'm now seriously thinking maybe we really need to get the sea going units from the CC.

	31-12-2003 02:24									#26
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I suppose if the Drones gives us the +3 armor in the next turn or two then my doubt can be put off a little. For my experience is that even if you have +6 attack, to conque a base with +3 armor units are not very easy. Also perhaps we need to ask for the AP tech right away when they gets it. We may not want to wait until they send us a plane for by that time they may already get MMI and we will be facing some risk.

	31-12-2003 03:04									#27
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If the Drones don't give us the armour, them I will get VERY suspicious. They already pipped us to OUR govenor post, now they will withhold tech as well

-Jam

	31-12-2003 05:04									#28
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Curisers won't be useful in a war against the drones.

We'll have MMI before being able to get cruiser prototypes. I alway felt we could get iniative after MMI as a tech. Simply because we won't be beelining a strongly.