27-12-2003 03:29									#1
	achievement gap Support Apolyton

From time to time we hear things about how "we need to close the achievement gap" or some such. Has it ever occured to you how twisted an idea that is? Say (numbers are made up) 40% of white people went to college but only 20% of black people did. If the achievement gap is a bad thing, then it would be better for those numbers to go to 40 and 40 than for them to go to 40 and 60! It would also be at least partially good for them to go DOWN to 20 and 20. However, GOD FORBID it go to 20 and 50!

Discuss

	27-12-2003 03:37									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

huh?

	27-12-2003 03:42									#3
	Full PM-box? Change here!

The goal "closing the achievement gap" is nonsensical (or at least has nonsensical implications, which amounts to the same thing).

	27-12-2003 03:46									#4
	Get a bigger avatar today!

are you saying that, in an attempt to 'close the achievement gap' as you call it, colleges are limiting the potential of white students in favour of elevating the potential of Black ones? ie- that white students are being turned down in favour of black ones? so instead of having a 40/20 situation, as in your example, people are creating a 30/30 situation, letting one side fall off while the other is increased? thats what you're saying?

	27-12-2003 03:48									#5
	Increase Your PM Length

No, I'm saying that the goal "closing the achievement gap" implies that it would be a good thing to do stuff like that (in fact, it implies that it would be ok to just cut it to 20-20 because, hey, now they're the same).

I'm trying to say that what should be important is helping everyone, not breaking us down into meaningless categories based on skin color or other superficial things.

	27-12-2003 03:49									#6
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by skywalker not breaking us down into meaningless categories based on skin color or other superficial things.

	27-12-2003 03:55									#7
	Put an end to popups!

why is that getting a thumbs up?

duh... what the hell are you trying to say skywalker? of course, we shouldn't sacrifice one group achieving in order to have two groups equal rather than having the second group achieve at the level of the first group... and of course, group individuals into categories based on skin colour is stupid and racist. what is your point?

	27-12-2003 03:57									#8
	Support Apolyton

[Bait]

Most black people are poor.

[/Bait]

	27-12-2003 03:59									#9
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer why is that getting a thumbs up? duh... what the hell are you trying to say skywalker? of course, we shouldn't sacrifice one group achieving in order to have two groups equal rather than having the second group achieve at the level of the first group... and of course, group individuals into categories based on skin colour is stupid and racist. what is your point?

My point is that while the goal or getting rid of the achievement gap seems to promote equality etc., the consequences of it are irrational and harmful.

	27-12-2003 04:21									#10
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: [Bait] Most black people are poor. [/Bait]

[Bite]
NO WE ISNT! WHITEY IS PUTTIN' US DOWN!
[/Bite]

	27-12-2003 04:23									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: I'm trying to say that what should be important is helping everyone, not breaking us down into meaningless categories based on skin color or other superficial things.

but then it would make sense and there would be one less thing to ***** about, and the world being what it is, wont let that happen.

	27-12-2003 04:32									#12
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer why is that getting a thumbs up? duh... what the hell are you trying to say skywalker? of course, we shouldn't sacrifice one group achieving in order to have two groups equal rather than having the second group achieve at the level of the first group... and of course, group individuals into categories based on skin colour is stupid and racist. what is your point?

As long as we recognize "groups" then we will be fostering differences. I've said it before and I'll say it again: King was right...Judge people by the content of their character and not the color of their skin.

	27-12-2003 04:58									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Why do you think that it would be better if less people overall went to college? Wouldn't society be better off if more people had a college education?

	27-12-2003 06:07									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

i say if it's ok for there to be hbcs, we should also create bunches of hacs, so we as won't be limited.

	27-12-2003 06:11									#15
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by axi Why do you think that it would be better if less people overall went to college? Wouldn't society be better off if more people had a college education?

I don't! I think that it's BAD! What I was pointing out was that if we accept the achievement gap as being inherently bad, then we must also accept that a decrease in achievement in whichever group is ahead as inherently good, which is ridiculous. Thus, it is ridiculous to say the achievement gap is inherently bad.

	27-12-2003 06:19									#16
	Put an end to popups!

I am totally lost.

quote: Thus, it is ridiculous to say the achievement gap is inherently bad.

I thought you've been trying to get at the fact that the "achievement gap" is an idiotic phrase.

	27-12-2003 06:30									#17
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: I am totally lost.

By showing that the logical consequences of an assumption are ridiculous, I show that assumption to be ridiculous itself. A logical consequence of the assumption "the achievement gap is inherently bad" is the statement "hurting the group in the lead is inherently good", which is ridiculous. Thus, the assumption "the achievement gap is inherently bad" is ridiculous.

quote: thought you've been trying to get at the fact that the "achievement gap" is an idiotic phrase.

No, there is an achievement gap and the phrase is relatively accurate.

	27-12-2003 06:44									#18
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The "achievement gap" has more to do with the culture of different minority groups then anything else. Most of the Mexican/central American/Spanish speaking Caribbean people who immigrate to the US are more interested in getting jobs then in going to school & naturally they often pass this along to their children. That's why Hispanics in the US have such a low level of college graduates. The Hispanics who are educated and happy with their lives generally don't want to move to another country while it's the lower class that leaves for the US.

The low level of educational achievement among blacks seems to be of the "you can't win in a white man's world so why try" variety. Personally, I believe this is a crutch used by people who just can’t be bothered to put the effort in. Still, black women have been make great strides in educational achievement while black men don't seem to fair very well.

Asians often have a higher level of achievement then whites do and this too is mostly because of culture. Chinese, Korean, & Japanese families seem to stress educational excellence to their children from a young age. Many Asian parents even go so far as to punish or beat their kids if they don’t bring home a report card with straight “A”s. I think this is to much and that it robs children of their childhood but in the end this all goes back to culture.

	27-12-2003 06:53									#19
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Asians often have a higher level of achievement then whites do and this too is mostly because of culture. Chinese, Korean, & Japanese families seem to stress educational excellence to their children from a young age.

stress isn't quite the word i'd use for it.

quote: Many Asian parents even go so far as to punish or beat their kids if they don’t bring home a report card with straight “A”s.

no, beating isn't the case. usually yelling. and it's often when you bring home a 95 instead of a 100.

quote: I think this is to much and that it robs children of their childhood but in the end this all goes back to culture.

you're wrong. that is our childhood.

	27-12-2003 07:51									#20
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Asians often have a higher level of achievement then whites do and this too is mostly because of culture. Chinese, Korean, & Japanese families seem to stress educational excellence to their children from a young age. Many Asian parents even go so far as to punish or beat their kids if they don’t bring home a report card with straight “A”s. I think this is to much and that it robs children of their childhood but in the end this all goes back to culture.

Oh, do I so know about this. At my school (an uber tech magnet school) we have about 45% Asians (though we often make jokes about how the entire school is made of Asians ) and they complain about how their parents b1tch about 94's (the lowest A) and such

	27-12-2003 08:05									#21
	Suffering from ads?

it's all about family people... the asians got working families while the rest of us are the products of single mothers or divorcees.

	27-12-2003 08:16									#22
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

My parents are married. Other then one aunt no one in my family has ever gotten divorced or had a child out of wedlock. We're just old fashioned.

	27-12-2003 10:42									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Yes... there's a lot that is based on culture, and what children are exposed to.

Presuming that as a given (it -is- changable with emphasis on personal decision-making but it's negligible in 2003)
Then there are people with different levels of desire to achieve, and different desires for education.

The best we can do is work to give people what they desire (so long as it does not stifle the ability of others to...)
That is, we give university positions to the Asians, the Whiteys and the Blacks (Plus anyone else I've forgotten).

If there aren't enough places? Fund more! (but again presuming this is impossible) Let in those who will best make use of the available positions. Those hard workers with good minds.
Out of culture this may be majorly asian, but hey... give power only to those that want and can use it!

Fixing base attitudes is the key to fixing society (As these attitudes are what define our culture and our society itself) but without fixing those we can at least work to help different cultures.

	28-12-2003 02:22									#24
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

my family's divorced. last time i checked, i was still asian, though the divorced family bit could make me a lapsed asian. i should start practicing again.

	28-12-2003 03:51									#25
	Remove this text

Correct me if I'm wrong please - English is not my mother tounge:

"we need to close the achievement gap" - objetive

Commentary

quote: ... that if we accept the achievement gap as being inherently bad, then we must also accept that a decrease in achievement in whichever group is ahead as inherently good, which is ridiculous. Thus, it is ridiculous to say the achievement gap is inherently bad.

Method:

quote: By showing that the logical consequences of an assumption are ridiculous, I show that assumption to be ridiculous itself.

-----------------
Aplying the same logic (Again - correct me if I'm wrong)

"we need to end the consume of drugs"

Commentary (by Yaroslav):
... that if we accept the achievement gap drug use as being inherently bad, then we must also accept that a decrease in achievement in whichever group is ahead as inherently good the number of drug consumed as inherently good, no matter wich system is used to meet that objetive (for instance, killing all the drug-consuming people), which is ridiculous. Thus, it is ridiculous to say the achievement gap the objetive of ending the drug consume is inherently bad.

Method:

quote: By showing that the logical consequences of an assumption are ridiculous, I show that assumption to be ridiculous itself.

Were am I wrong?

	28-12-2003 03:54									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I think you made a formatting error. I'm not sure I understood the point of that post

	28-12-2003 03:56									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Format corrected

	28-12-2003 05:09									#29
	Support Apolyton

Why do you laugh?

It's my way of saying that I don't understand your logic