27-12-2003 04:06									#1
	If God is the Universe - are you still an Athiest? Increase Your PM Length

Another thread discussing philosophy and the universe got me thinking about how one could be an atheist and deny the existence of God, when we do not precisely know who or what God is. If we define God as the Universe (as the Universe did create the heavens and the Earth and all the rest) could you still be an atheist? So, the very statement that one is an antheist presumes an understanding of who or what God is, which may, of course, be wrong.

Athiests, please explain your understanding of God.

	27-12-2003 04:08									#2
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how can you understand something that doesn't exist besides understanding that it doesn't exist?

	27-12-2003 04:12									#3
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quote: Originally posted by korn469 how can you understand something that doesn't exist besides understanding that it doesn't exist?

The question is, what does not exist?

	27-12-2003 04:15									#4
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i'm just kidding with you Ned

	27-12-2003 04:17									#5
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I was once an atheist, then I came to the realisation that religion can do good things for people, on a case by case basis. That, and I figured its easier to explain my non-belief my simply shrugging and saying "I dunno."

	27-12-2003 04:24									#6
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quote: I figured its easier to explain my non-belief my simply shrugging and saying "I dunno."

Yeah, that's a conversation killer.

	27-12-2003 04:40									#7
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hmmm, well if "God is the universe" is a given, but not understood to be an absolute fact, then yes, you could be an atheist out of ignorance or by just plain ignoring this fact. If "God is the universe" is an absolute that is impossible to ignore or argue against then there is is no way to be an atheist as you know that since the universe exists God must therefore exist.

But then again people have been ignoring absolutes for eons now, so my answer is still up in the air...

Absolute like: fire.....BURN!!!!

	27-12-2003 04:46									#8
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quote: If we define God as the Universe

Most people think of "God" as a being with consciousness. Why come up with a new word for the universe when "universe" works quite well?

Besides, if we start redefining the word "God" that could lead to other words being redefined. Like marriage. Then folks would push for a constitutional amendment defining "God" solely as a union of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, excluding anything that would include gays - like the universe.

	27-12-2003 05:59									#9
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so the universe knocked up mary? :???:

	27-12-2003 06:02									#10
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I think he exists, but if he's worth his salt, he's already given up on us and moved on.

PURGATORY, HERE I COME!!!!!!!!!!!!

	27-12-2003 06:05									#11
	Re: If God is the Universe - are you still an Athiest? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Ned Another thread discussing philosophy and the universe got me thinking about how one could be an atheist and deny the existence of God, when we do not precisely know who or what God is. If we define God as the Universe (as the Universe did create the heavens and the Earth and all the rest) could you still be an atheist? So, the very statement that one is an antheist presumes an understanding of who or what God is, which may, of course, be wrong. Athiests, please explain your understanding of God.

Of course you can deny the existance of God or gods. The word "god" has a certain well-defined meaning. "God" is not "the Universe". The Universe exists (duh, by definition), "God" does not (or more precisely, there is no evidence that he does exist, which is almost the same thing). "My understanding of God"? Look in a dictionary.

Oh, and if God is the Universe then all that means is that you've now made the term "God" synonymous with the term "the Universe", so anything that applied to God before doesn't. It's like if I made the word "apple" mean "orange" - the statement "apples are red" would no longer be true.

	27-12-2003 06:09									#12
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If God is the universe, then where did the things that are outside of the universe come from?

What do you define as the 'Universe' anyway?

	27-12-2003 06:12									#13
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By definition, nothing is outside of the Universe. The Universe is the set of all that exists. Therefore anything "outside the Universe" does not exist.

	27-12-2003 06:12									#14
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If God was a tree, would you atheists still "leave"?

	27-12-2003 06:16									#15
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No, we'd all move to Russia.

	27-12-2003 06:19									#16
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quote: there is no evidence that he does exist

Actually there is but you have to look.

	27-12-2003 06:33									#17
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As in the Bible?

	27-12-2003 07:32									#18
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I don't believe in God as described in any human religious scripture or religion. Nobody knows who or what God is, or if there is such a thing. Anyone who claims to know is wrong... or crazy... or both...

that's my position...

we don't know there is a god... it's not right to say there is one, and not right to say there isn't.

	27-12-2003 07:40									#19
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An easy question to answer.

If pantheism is true but I have no evidence that it is true, then yes.

If pantheism is true and I have sufficient evidence that it's true, then no.

But it's a moot point: pantheism is ridiculous.

	27-12-2003 07:55									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I don't believe in God as described in any human religious scripture or religion. Nobody knows who or what God is, or if there is such a thing. Anyone who claims to know is wrong... or crazy... or both... that's my position... we don't know there is a god... it's not right to say there is one, and not right to say there isn't.

Actually, in the absence of evidence, the negative would generally be held to be correct (hey, we don't know there aren't any elves living on the surface of electrons, so we can't tell you they aren't ).

	27-12-2003 07:58									#21
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It's simply impossible, on the traditional understanding of God as an infinite being, for finite beings such as ourselves to be able to investigate reality to prove or disprove the existence of such a being.

Agnosticism is the rational response.

In any case, if God really existed, it would be appalling if he said the things that the fundies say.

	27-12-2003 07:59									#22
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Actually, in the absence of evidence, the negative would generally be held to be correct (hey, we don't know there aren't any elves living on the surface of electrons, so we can't tell you they aren't ).

Yeah, actually we do.

The last of the Elves died in the Great Battle of the Mammoth Unicorns.

	27-12-2003 08:00									#23
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If we have no way to prove or disprove his existance, doesn't Occam's razor say we should assume he doesn't exist? Again, just because I can't prove little green elves don't live on the surface of electrons doesn't mean I shouldn't assume they don't.

	27-12-2003 08:16									#24
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker If we have no way to prove or disprove his existance, doesn't Occam's razor say we should assume he doesn't exist? Again, just because I can't prove little green elves don't live on the surface of electrons doesn't mean I shouldn't assume they don't.

Ockham's razor is a methological principle (although I'm a pragmatist, so it goes further than that for me) not necessarily an indicator of the truth.

There's a disanalogy between the cases. We have good reasons to believe that there are no little elves on the surfaces of electrons because it doesn't cohere with the rest of scientific theory.

God is different. God is supposed to transcend the physical universe so scientific laws do not apply in his/her/its case.

	27-12-2003 08:39									#25
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quote: There's a disanalogy between the cases. We have good reasons to believe that there are no little elves on the surfaces of electrons because it doesn't cohere with the rest of scientific theory.

What if the good little elves don't affect the electron and we can't detect them

	27-12-2003 09:02									#26
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker quote: There's a disanalogy between the cases. We have good reasons to believe that there are no little elves on the surfaces of electrons because it doesn't cohere with the rest of scientific theory. What if the good little elves don't affect the electron and we can't detect them

But we know what elves are and what sorts of things minds are and what is required biologically for something to be a mind, and it just doesn't follow that elves could be that small and still have minds. Are we going to say they have hands and feet? What are those made out of? Then it just gets ridiculous.

	27-12-2003 09:30									#27
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quote: Then it just gets ridiculous.

Kinda like god

	27-12-2003 09:35									#28
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker quote: Then it just gets ridiculous. Kinda like god

No, because by hypothesis God transcends the universe. Therefore he is not subject to its laws. Saying that elves exist within the universe requires that they exist in accordance with scientific laws.

It's appropriate to make scientific objections to claims made about entities within the physical universe, but not about things that people think of as transcendent.

Look, I'm not one for believing in God, but we have to be fair. There's no point in accusing theists of being irrational if our side is going to cheat (not that we really need to).

	27-12-2003 09:37									#29
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quote: No, because by hypothesis God transcends the universe. Therefore he is not subject to its laws.

Wait - how does he "transcend" the universe? As I stated before, the universe is the set of all that exists. Therefore, if god is not an element in that set, he does not exist.

	27-12-2003 09:41									#30
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker quote: No, because by hypothesis God transcends the universe. Therefore he is not subject to its laws. Wait - how does he "transcend" the universe? As I stated before, the universe is the set of all that exists. Therefore, if god is not an element in that set, he does not exist.

That's a sophistical argument. Most theists would not agree with your premise that the universe comprises all existents. When they talk about the universe they mean the universe as understood by the physical sciences. They don't believe that this is everything that exists, because they believe that a Deity created it and its laws.

Presumably, if God had absolute freedom in creating it, he could have made physical laws whatever he liked. The existence of miracles requires the suspension of physical laws and thus outside interference.

Most theists conceive of God as a transcendent being - i.e. not limited by the laws of the physical universe, nor being located anywhere in it. You can't just beg the question against them.