27-12-2003 18:04									#1
	Civ Games Comparison Chart Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Hullo fellow civvers!

I have installed and played a little of Galactic Civilizations yesterday. It struck me how much Civ-in-Space feel to it it has, much more than Master of Orion series or Space Empires and other such games.

Anyway, inspired by that I have ventured into creating one HUGE chart that would both quantify and compare the features and aspects of what I call the Civ Genre but could be described as "Large scale God games" in a politically correct way.

You can view the chart here (works in IE, but not in my Opera which I attribute to my extensive and messy customization. It is just a table so you should see it OK): http://free-zg.htnet.hr/SimunSelak/...rison_chart.htm

Since I started it I have mostly been adding columns as I remember more and more features that are comparable.

I would appreciate if you have comments or suggestions on the columns and I would also appreciate if someone takes the time to "process" any particular game and fill the table for it.

Last edited by VetLegion on 08-01-2004 at 05:35

	27-12-2003 18:35									#2
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How long will it be before some pedantic saddo asks this to be moved to the 'Other Games' forum?

	27-12-2003 18:40									#3
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

...and talking of pedantic saddo (ie. me!), you missed the Fundamental government type out of Civ2 by lumping it with Civ3

	27-12-2003 18:43									#4
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Multilateral diplomacy
UN, Planetary Council, etc... exists?

Civilization III

Yes

---

I wouldnt say that the UN thingie to achieve diplomatic victory can really count as a "Planetary Council".

	27-12-2003 19:05									#5
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Ok, you are both right, I'll add Fundamentalist to Civ 2 and I'll remove Civ 3 from multilateral diplomacy.

	27-12-2003 19:08									#6
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It works fine in Opera...

Suggestion: put non-breaking spaces in those empty cells so they will show a border too.

	27-12-2003 19:52									#7
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Done (with questionmarks).

	27-12-2003 20:22									#8
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Could a mod move this to 'Other Games' please?


Just kidding. Nice job so far.

	27-12-2003 21:19									#9
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To make it simple:

code:


CIV III
Rules
Rules
Rules
Rules
Rules
Rules
Rules
Rules

There is no need to say more

	27-12-2003 21:34									#10
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Suggestions for some missing entries :

Colonization:
Different AI personalities: Yes (Spain allways kills indians, France allways attacks with too few units)

SMAC:
Victory Conditions: Conquest, Economic, Diplomatic (planetary council), project

Civ2:
Tech cost increases by 10 for every new tech discovered. Linear Tech tree.
Number of techs: 99 I think?
Victory conditions: Remove diplomatic, the UN is there but it's just an
other wonder.
Mods in existance: Too many to count (I have 2 GB on my computer and that's noweher near everything).

Moo2:
Purchasing switch penalty should be yes
Combat model: complex I suppose (there's a battle screen where you controll your ships in turn based combat and you get to refitt ships and stuff)
Special unit for terrain improvement: no (it's done from the planet screen...)
Diplomatic proposals: Trade treaty, Research Treaty, Peace, War, demand tribute (5 or 10% per turn), exchange techs, demand gold/colonies/techs, ally
UN/Planetary senate: Kinda, there's a galactic senate thingie as I recall
Govt types: Dictatorship, Empire, Democracy, Unification
Internal politics: There's unrest and planets defecting if they are populated by enslaved enemy pops but that's about it...
Grid Type: There really isn't a grid apart from in combat. Instead you jump between the systems...
ICS solutions: Um, increased corruption I think?
Can build Bases on: Planets
Tech Tree: All techs cannot be researched by one civ you get to chose which one to develop out of 2-4 in each "layer" of the tech tree. You can however trade for the others. Not sure about tech rate.
Victory Conditions: Diplomatic (vote), Conquest, Defeat Antarans (by going through a portal and fighting them)

Europa Universalis 2: (perhaps you should add a box for if the games are turn based or not?)
Colony cost: Depends on area being colonized
Government types: Religions and in EU2 there's Domestic Policies too.
Internal Politics: Stability counter
ICS Solution: In EU2 trade posts get increasingly expensive depending on how many you have allready forcing you to make them into colonies instead...
Tech Rate: Tech costs are calculated from a nations size, the more provinces the higher cost for new techs.
Different AI personalities: Yes (there's an AI file for every country)
Scripting, custom units, graphics, custom AI behaviour...: Yes (Full scenario support: scripting language, moddable graphics)
Scenarios and mods in existance: A lot

	27-12-2003 21:45									#11
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Here's some CTP2 data:

quote: Design own units/ships: No (not as in SMAC) Purchasing switch penalty: No Colony unit cost Complex or simplistic combat model: Complex Stacked combat: Yes Special unit for terrain improvement: No, public works. Types of diplomatic deals available: 37 Multilateral diplomacy : No Government types : Lots, add whatever you want. Internal politics : No Grid type : Diamonds (isometric) ICS (Infinite city spread) solutions : City Radii (const. expand, Point based) Can build bases on (Land, Water, Space, Underground) : Land, Water. Tech rate and is tech tree linear or random? : Modable. Number of techs in the tech tree: Lots, add as many as you want. End Replay : No Animated units: Yes Governors : Yes, modable. Different AI personalities : Yes, modable. Victory Conditions: Diplomatic, Conquest, Build project Modability and Scenarios: Are you kidding? Almost everything is accessible via SLIC or text files. No comparison. See my sig. Scenarios and mods in existance : Lots. Game length in turns on standard settings: 600?

	27-12-2003 22:04									#12
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Henrik and Peter, thanks
I'll add that data now

I'm still not sure should EU even be there though..

	27-12-2003 22:35									#13
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Good work!
Very interesting table!

	27-12-2003 23:13									#14
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If the Data Master Himself says so

Updated and put the small logos of games up there.

	27-12-2003 23:23									#15
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The fact that they ruled C2's combat system the best makes me wary of giving much credence to their ratings

EDIT: oh, and C1 was rated best for grid type

	27-12-2003 23:31									#16
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Skywalker I put those there based on my preferences

So it is not like official results or anything and I may indeed remove it later, for the sake of objectivity. (And I don't want a flame war over the choices either )

Anyway, what other titles should be included, what did I left out?

EDIT: Master of Magic. If someone can provide me with the data I will put it in. The game belongs right there with the others, it is civ in fanatsy world from what I heard (never played it though).

Last edited by VetLegion on 27-12-2003 at 23:39

	28-12-2003 00:28									#17
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A few notes for CtP2 and Galciv:

Design own units:
Galciv allows you to design your own deathstars. That's very limited, but you can have a tanker deathstar which is used to destroy stars (duh...) or a culture death star. OR a 'boost all my ships' mobile deathstar. Very limited, though.
Anyway, deathstars are akin to nukes in civ1/2, as they exterminate a lot of things in one shot. This is missing from civ3. You might need a new column...

The 'penalty for switching production' column is also very misleading. In civ2, you get a penalty when switching from one type to another. In galciv, you don't because you can't. When you switch from a social project to another one, the previous project keeps its production for when you put it on top later. In this sense, the galciv system is vastly superior to civ3 if you don't like 'cheating' by switching production.

Galciv combat model is much simpler than moo for instance. Maybe simpler than civ2, but not by much. Civ2 is simplistic in comparison with CtP2.

Galciv does NOT have stacked combat. It has stacked movement, followed by ship to ship combat. You may want to cut this yes/no column into no (civ) / movement only (galciv) / combined arms(ctp2).

Galciv also allows a lot more diplomatic options than what you showed:
-Peace, war, alliance, trade embargo (alliance requires a tech - talking to other civs too). Then you can exchange techs, trade goods (like tradeable wonders), money, ships, starbases, planets, influence, and, most important, ask someone to attack someone else even when you're at war with noone. You can demand tribute and offer gifts.
In fact, Galciv user interface is also much better for me than civ3 here as you have sliders which let you see if your offer will be accepted (green) or rejected (yellow). Map exchange and contact with other civs are lacking, though, but influence and trade goods are there.

Government types: Galciv has 4 different gov types, but that's actually 2: Empire and The Rest. You can safely remove the question mark from the CtP2 line. Definitely a lot and varied.

Internal politics: Galciv actually gives penalties if you lose elections, but the likelyhood of losing an election when you have learnt playing is very low. There are also uprisings if the morale is too low on your planets (I-League) or if you are too evil (Fundies).

ICS:
CtP2: Limit on the number of cities per government. Beyond that point, more unhappiness.
Galciv: The ai sees the yellow stars and thus expands better than the player. The fact is Galciv is plagued with early sprawl, but the limiting factor is there are only a few spots where you can build colonies (viable planets).

City radius:
In Galciv, you have the influence radius...

Techs:
CtP2 and Galciv have techs that have a fixed cost and are organised in a directed graph. MOO (1) allowed you to research several techs in parallel, each having a fixed cost, but all of them were not always available in every game to every race.

Victory conditions:
CtP2: The project (science) victory actually requires you to control a LOT of land, so it's as good as inexistent.
Galciv: Military, science, alliance, culture.

Moddability:
CtP2: Puts civ2 to shame.
Galciv: New ships, random events, techs, buildings. Map editor and more are in beta.

Existing mods/scenarios:
CtP2: Scenarios: Few. Mods: Several.
Galciv: A lot of 'mods'. Beware that, compared with civ2 or ctp2 mods, these are laughable.

Galciv says you can have up to 32 civs at any point in the game, but it's unlikely you'll see more than a dozen.

Galciv unique features include starbases. These are more than mining. They are mostly noticeable for their trade bases and culture bombs. Then you have minor races/major racs dichotomy. If a minor kills all majors but you, you win (duh...).

I'd add yet anothe column: Unhappiness management. This is achieved in civ and ctp by specialists and buildings, plus the setting of one or more overall sliders (luxury rate or the various CtP2 sliders). Galciv uses 1 global slider (tax rate), a planet slider (propaganda), buildings, tech, resources. Civ3 has resources (luxuries) in addition to what civ2 offered.

On the Exterminate front, you might want to add non military expansion (bribing with diplomats in civ2, CtP2 allows that but the city turns into barbarians or another civ) and culture flipping (civ3, galciv).

EDIT: I'll post something on MoM.

	28-12-2003 00:48									#18
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Master Of Magic:

Design own units/ships : Magic items for heroes.
Penalty when switching production : Don't remember.
Settler / Colonist unit cost : Costs more or less depending on race.
Complex or simplistic combat model : COMPLEX. Mini game (like in MOO) but you can cast spells in combat.
Stacked combat: Yes.
Special unit for terrain improvement: Yes: engineers for road building. Not all civs have them. Dwarves are faster. Also spirits to merge with nodes of power (but you must clear them first before).
Types of diplomatic deals available: War. Peace is rumoured to exist. There may even be such things like alliance and truce, but these are seldom useful given the ai.
Multilateral diplomacy: None.
Government types: None. Thou art the sole ruler.
Internal politics: Well, the klackon peasants may go unhappy so you build them a temple. None.
Grid type: Squares. Two maps (a bit like in ToT).
ICS (Infinite city spread) solutions: Minimum space between cities. New cities take time to grow, don't become productive immediately and may even starve and disappear if the terrain is really bad or you've got a poor growth rate race (trolls, dark elves...)
City/Base Radius: As Civ(1).
Can build bases on (Land, Water, Space, Underground): Arcanus, Myrror (2 maps). Land only.
Type of tech research: A bit complex. Everyone has arcane spells available, costing more or less research, and then there are domain spells, which you may or may not research depending on the number of spellbooks you've got. You can find more spellbooks during the game.
Number of techs that can be researched: Don't remember. Many spells.
Replay available when game ends? No.
Animated units: In game, no, in tactical combat, yes.
City/Base Governors: No (?)
Do different Leader AI personalities exist? Yes.
What kinds of vicory are possible? Military or Spell of Domination.
Modability: None.
Game length in turns on standars settings. Don't remember. Varied a lot depending on your picks and strategies too.
Multiplayer options (PBEM, Hotseat, one-on-one. How many max players?) : None?
Difficulty levels: Don't remember. 5 I think.
Maximum number of civilizations in any game session: 4 + player + neutrals.
Unique Civ abilites: Yes.

In addition, MoM has: 2 pools for maintaining units (mana and gold+food). Races have different units, different set of buildings available in their cities. Possibility to keep cities of other races and build their units ther. Spells, heroes, magic items. Possibility to build your own magic items.

Pity it won't run on my modern computer...

	28-12-2003 01:52									#19
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MOO3 basically plays with itself. You do nothing-you're not qualified!

	28-12-2003 06:45									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove MOO3 basically plays with itself. You do nothing-you're not qualified!

I have at least tested many turn based games (as witnessed by this table) and suffice to say MoO 3 is by far the worst I have ever seen.

	28-12-2003 06:47									#21
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LDiCesare, a big contribution , thanks
I have added it all (I think).

	28-12-2003 07:53									#22
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EU:
Internal Politics- Balancing the Religious Slider
Unhappiness Management- Maintaining Stability and managing the Religious Slider and not letting wars drag on too long.
ICS Solution- Not an issue.
Tech Research- Based upon the Tech Sliders- Every Game proceeds at the same rate and time can be invested in Naval, Trade, Army and Society arms of tech.
# of Techs- About 5 levels in Trade and Society (I think) and over 30 in both Navy and Army.
AI personalities- YES. Leader personalities effect the bonuses that each civ gets.
Victory possibilities- Conquest, Economic Leader, Diplomatic Absorbtion of Nations
Custom Units- None
Custom Graphics- Country Flags
Customization- People have written programs hacking into the game and allowing new scenarios.
Scenarios and Mods- Very few. (IT's not very mod-friendly)
Game Length- Hundreds of Turns

I would also suggest adding Shogun:Total War to the List.

	28-12-2003 08:00									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor To make it simple: code: CIV III Rules Rules Rules Rules Rules Rules Rules Rules There is no need to say more

You think your so high and mighty. Be warned however...I'm out to grab my spear and when I'm back, you are most certainly going to fall

	28-12-2003 08:11									#24
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You mean you're going to kill his tank!