30-07-2000 13:43									#1
	01: A space oddysy I Remove this text

Tonight it began. 7 different civilizations working together to reach the stars. Paul of OCC fame took the Romans. Bird the Japanese, Markusf the Germans, I (Matthew) the Aztecs, Oedo the Persians, Curumor the Carthagenians (later taken over by Ming)and RAH the Mongols. We got off to a rough start. We were somewhat disorganised, and a few huts didn't go our way. Noone was out of Despotism till around 2400 B.C. Paul opted to wait a few more turns for Republic. I would have gone republic first myself but didn't want to wait.

It's too late for details, but it's 20 A.D. and Space Flight is just a few turns away.

Yes, it is possible to launch a space ship in 1 A.D. Had we gotten a bit better start (The host only got two techs to start with: ceremonial burial and Bronze), and if we had worked together more efficiently we would have easily launched in 1 A.D. I believe.

The Roman OCC and the Germans carried most of the weight in discovering techs after the first 30 or so, while the rest of us primarily built caravans, more often than not giving them to Rome to establish trade routes with our cities. The Aztecs seem are in a position now to rival Rome and Germany in tech output (able to produce 300 beakers a turn with no science improvements and no superhighways, and the money to buy improvements enough to nearly triple that) but it's a bit late in the game. I think I can contribute more by building market places and possibly banks in my 4 best cities, which will allow me to take in a surplus of around 500 gold a turn. 3 more superhighways and 4 stock exchanges could probably get me to 800 gold per turn, but I'm not sure it would be worth the investment.

	30-07-2000 18:57									#2
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Yeah... it was fun, but it did seem a "little" disorganized

Yeah, it can be done!

	30-07-2000 19:31									#3
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My $0.02... Don't tip huts early for this. That's a great way to Really screw up your tech progression. If you guys orgainize the tech acquisistion right IMO each player should only really need something like 30 techs. OCC player will probably get more like 50. Hut tipping can Really mess with the systematic leapfrogging you need to make this thing work IMO.

	30-07-2000 19:41									#4
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Yes, I now truly believe.

Hut tipping has it's place.
Since I started close to our SSC site, I started to play the wanderer role, but my teammates were not cooperating. (yes 7 players trying to play together does cause some confusion.) If one player does all the roaming without starting a city. Tipping huts will work. He can be the repository of all knowledge and tip huts without fear of barbs or cities in crappy locations. He can dole out the science he finds strategically so the other players are not burdened having to many techs that slow down development. People in other areas of the world can donate a warrior to the search. (if you don't have a city, will a donated unit become a non?) If also helps the organizing of it because we sometimes wasted huts or development due to duplication. Organization is critical.

When we tried it Wed night we were in Monarchy by 3700 using this method, over a thousand years earlier than last night. If we had had that start last night, we would have won it.

You do need players that are willing to sacrifice for the team. My civ was pathetic but a few people have to be to make sure the others can succeed. It was the first time that when I retired and saw how lousy my civ had performed on the powergraph, I still felt satisfaction for having contributed to the effort. I was also impressed at the ability of some other civs to produce techs almost as quickly as our OCC champion. Well done.

It can be done. Who will be first?

RAH
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by rah (edited July 30, 2000).]</font>

	30-07-2000 20:49									#5
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I was already convinced that it could be done. And seeing how close we came with a less than optimum game I am even more convinced now. Stuff that should be improved in the next game: a better SSC site where I don't have to build on a hill and get the third and fourth special squares with more trade (buffalo and musk ox are not the best for an SSC).

And of course better research coordination in the early game. Later in the game research was a bit more coordinated although that may also have been because Markus and I were the only civs with decent research rates. So we had to coordinate mostly between the two of us.

Looking at how many beakers and gold I got from caravans we should be able to do much better if we can get trade much earlier in the game and start cranking out caravans.

Based on the techs we had I believe we needed only 8 more at the time of retirement in 20 AD: Radio, Adv. Flight, Rocketry, Space Flight, Nuclear Power, Laser, Superconductor and Fusion (we didn't have Flight yet, but Markus would have gotten that in the current turn). So I would say that we could have made it before 200 AD if we had continued this game.

Anyway, the game was certainly a lot of fun and I would certainly play such a cooperative MP game again. And I would like to thank all the other players for their contributions to the game.

	30-07-2000 22:40									#6
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Hmmm...impossible? Nothing is impossible.Apparently.

The 2nd "fortnight" occ save would be good for this.Pretty rich terrain for all and a monarchy start for the OCCer.

	30-07-2000 23:11									#7
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The biggest mistake of the game was not getting mono. No one built any wonders and i think some of the happy wonders should have been built. Without chapels i couldn't take my cities past size 13-15, and i couldn't risk going into democracy because 4 turns of unrest would be 2 lost techs. At full output my 8 city civ of which 3 cities where size 1 and 2 where making 900 science/turn or 600 cash/turn.

I just loaded up the save and just switched to demcoracy for the heck of it. 1 turn/Tech!!!! I believe had i switched at 500BC we would have reached spaceflight by 1ad.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by markusf (edited July 30, 2000).]</font>

	30-07-2000 23:51									#8
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I also reloaded the game and one thing I noticed: together we had 52 cities. For the fastest spaceship you need 54 parts, so we wouldn't have had enough cities to build the ship in one turn. That's also something to look at in the next game. Each player (except the OCC player) should have 10 cities on average to be able to give enough cities to the spaceshipbuilder to finish the ship in one turn.

	31-07-2000 03:25									#9
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why? its not as if we are going to build the spaceship wonder and research ALL improvements on the same turn. let alone have that much cash on hand.

	31-07-2000 03:37									#10
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If you're gonna build Apollo and the SS on the same turn then you need to have those cities in place and perhaps all building wonders since there is no penalty for switching from a wonder to a SS part.

Also the "launcher" is gonna have to be any color but white.White can build Apollo but not SS parts the same turn.Perhaps purple would be the best for the "launcher".

Actually for 1 turn the white civ is gonna have to build Apollo.Cities will have to given to the launcher immediately before white hits enter.That will be a long turn.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Smash (edited July 30, 2000).]</font>

	31-07-2000 04:06									#11
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Wow! 7 civs are sure better than 4 . If the techs were researched before 1ad then Apollo could be built earlier.

The key to success should be the availability of an island city. Effectively double the trade income.

	31-07-2000 04:17									#12
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Actually the Aztecs could have at any time made a much higher contribution to science. At the end for example I was capable of almost 300 beakers per turn without any science improvements. There was money availible for those improvements in addition to superhighways, but since at times it seemed I couldn't buy beg or steal information about our tech progress I didn't know if I should concentrate on trying to grow more, build caravans, or how much money to ask for from Paul to help build my infrastructure. Heck, I didn't even know that superhighways were availible till several turns after the discovery of the Automobile. This wasn't any one persons fault. I think it was just a part of the general disorganization. Next time we might do well to each build a dip to give to one civ (probably best not one of the better trade civs, so he can concentrate on this task better) who can establish embassies with everyone, and actas a coordinator. That way he can more easily keep track of who has newtechs, and gently remind us to give him techswe have just discovered. (I think all of us forgot about that part at times) He can also keep track of who has how much gold,
and try to organize it's expenditure. Also, if we keep him informed as to our situation and potential he can direct a civ to perform a specific task

	31-07-2000 04:34									#13
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Actually the Democracy thing would not have been that hard to come by. Someone could have built SOL in a small city, and passed it around to those who wanted to switch.

So when are we going to either continue or try again?

	31-07-2000 16:30									#14
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Wed, fri, sat, any night, let me know.

RAH

	31-07-2000 17:33									#15
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I could play any day except tomorrow (wednessday). If possible I would like to start a bit earlier, but I would still play late if the other players couldn't start earlier.

Some more observations based on saturday's game: theology is not on the path to space flight so if someone builds the Oracle it could last the entire game. If we also went for mono someone else could build Mike's. The civs with Oracle and Mike's would be the other researchers besides the SSC civ.

Also, on saturday we discovered republic before I had finished Colossus. If I were to build a temple before starting Colossus I could start celebrating as soon as I got republic and I wouldn't need to set luxuries to 40% to keep my city from disorder. The other players should probably donate some money so that it wouldn't cost too many turns, but it could also pay off. With WLTCD growth earlier in the game I could produce more shields and money to finish Colossus faster.

As far as research is concerned: we should concentrate early research on three targets: monarchy, republic and trade. After trade we could crank out caravans to donate to the SSC and research civs for cash and science bonuses. The cash could be used to rush improvements and wonders. Besides the OCC wonders would we need any others besides Oracle and Mike's?

Also, I think that the neighbours of the SSC should each use a settler or two to help improve the land around the SSC. This would of course depend on the amounts of ocean/land and the type of land around the SSC. In the current game I wasn't able to improve all the land around my SSC. I only got roads on most of my rivers after I built two engineers and Ming started to help out.

And Markus, we would want to build the entire spaceship in one turn. After all, the original challenge was to build and launch the ship in 1 AD. With 5 years flight time it would then land in 6 AD.

	31-07-2000 18:29									#16
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Disorganized is certainly accurate, but it was fun and a good exercise. Clearly 1AD launch will happen soon and the race will be on to beat that.

I expect to be available the usual time Wednesday. (Paul, you said you're not available "tomorrow (Wednesday)." Does that mean you're not available Tuesday night US time/Wednesday morning CET? Or Wednesday night US Time? What day is it... where am I????

	31-07-2000 18:49									#17
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I mean that I am not available to play tomorrow night because I have to get up early on thursday. So I'm talking about wednessday night US/thursday morning Europe.

Edit: I can play on thursday, friday, saturday, sunday. And also today but that might be short notice for some people.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Paul (edited July 31, 2000).]</font>

	31-07-2000 18:55									#18
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LOL. One of us is confused Paul. If today is Monday, "tomorrow" then must be Tuesday. Of course I grew up in the sticks, so you never know.....

	31-07-2000 19:26									#19
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Sounds like a good game for a first try. Congratulations and best of luck on your next try!

	31-07-2000 19:32									#20
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You're right. I am confused. I thought today was tuesday. I guess it's the lack of sleep resulting from saturday/sunday's game. So I would be able to play on monday, tuesday, thursday, friday, saturday or sunday. But not on wednessday.

	01-08-2000 17:13									#21
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Paul... Too bad you can't do it on Wednesday night. I think a bunch of us will be trying again with our normal Wednesday night bunch.
It just won't be the same without you

	01-08-2000 17:47									#22
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I should be able to play wednesday and friday...or was it tuesday and thursday??¿?
well, now I´m confused, too.

but what is your usual time Bird?
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by oedo (edited August 01, 2000).]</font>

	01-08-2000 19:35									#23
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Sorry, but I can't play wednessday unless you start early. I certainly would quit at 3:00 CET (21:00 Eastern US) so that I could get some sleep before I had to get up. I don't know what time you usually start, but I suppose you guys have jobs, so you couldn't start early enough for me to join.

	01-08-2000 20:16									#24
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I've been following this discussion from the sidelines with interest. I'm even tempted to go out and buy MPG so I can join in on the fun (alas, I don't have the block of hours needed to commit to a multiplayer game).

I love the idea of having one civ tip all huts and be the repository of all techs. It strikes me that early in the game, some civs should set science to 0%, and wait until some of the preliminary techs have been discovered by others. Someone could then rush to Trade without needing Bronze Working and Alphabet.

I don't have the tech tree in front of me, but I imagine that the SSC player could skip a lot of techs on the way to Space Flight. Techs like iron working, feudalism, chivalry, leadership, tactics, horseback riding, pottery could be skipped altogether. The same holds true for other players. Some could get away with only knowing a dozen techs until close ot the end. Imagine being gifted Combustion and Theory of Gravity and only needing 100 beakers for Flight.

Paul is right when he says he needs other players to give his SSC settler support. You want to get that city up to size 30+, and that requires a lot of help. I would want to see at least 6 settlers at it (but not supported by the SSC, since that would cut down on its food).

	03-08-2000 22:09									#25
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Our attempt last night went much better. Much more organized. (see we do learn) I did play the wanderer and it helped us get off to a quicker start. We were in monarchy quickly and had republic almost a 1000 years earlier than our first attempt. I don't think science will be the problem. We will need enough cities, and money to launch in one turn. We should be able to do it.

It's 1850 and I am still hut hunting, will finally put a city down soon (invention is coming real soon). The strategy is nice since we haven't gotten any barbs from a hut Too many units though and not enough science and money.

Rah

	04-08-2000 15:45									#26
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Yes, it certainly is going much better this time. We should definately be able to get all the science before 1 AD. But let's not forget that a 33-8-8-1-1-1 ship requires 52 cities. So we need about 10 cities per player.

When can everyone play again? I can play any time during the next two weeks.

	04-08-2000 16:23									#27
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I can play tonight or tomorrow night. Around 7 central time (i believe 8 hours difference for you Paul.)
RAH

	04-08-2000 18:05									#28
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I believe that would be 7 hours difference. I have 6 hours difference with eastern, and as far as I know there is 1 hour between central and eastern. But I may be wrong about that; I don't know all US time zones.

	04-08-2000 18:10									#29
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yeah, if your 6 from eastern, then you're 7 from central. Thanks for the correction.

RAH

	04-08-2000 20:53									#30
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Not tonight for me. I may be able to play tomorrow. If you want to play today you can find a sub for me. Remember several civs (expecially Paul) should avoid:

Invention (cut trade bonus by 2/3),
Navigaton (not sure, could double research beaker requirement),
RR (cut trade bonus by half), and
Advanced Flight (cut trade bonus by half)

to maximize trade bonus.

Ideally, Paul should accumulate several caravans for the civ which first disovered invention to get steamed engine and RR, and the civ can build Darvin to get democracy and gunpowder. Then RR is given to all civs except Paul. Paul gives more caravans for a civ to get industrialization. Now paul can skip invention and RR, while as many as 5 other civs can skip invention.