28-12-2003 01:40									#1
	C3C 1.12: Do you build the Forbidden Palace now and has optimal placement changed? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Is it even worth it now?

If so have placement strategies changed drastically from PTW?

Last edited by Artifex on 28-12-2003 at 01:45

	28-12-2003 02:17									#2
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IMHO it isn't worth bothering with.

In fact in my current epic game I've been getting a coulple of MGL's most turns whilst at war and I still can't be bothered to even rush build it.

Total waste of time.

Earlier during this game I had 2 FP's.
The first one I built seemed to have no effect so I abandoned the city.

I tried building it again in a very different location - still useless, so I abandoned that city too.

Either it gets fixed of it remains a waste of space.
At present it might just a well be dropped from the game.

	28-12-2003 05:43									#3
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It's still useful to build. I try to center the FP in my core in cases where the Palace isn't too well centered, which is most of the time (just about all the time with a Seafaring civ). I see jumps in overall commerce of about 15-20% when building the FP, and that's worth far more than 200 shields.

You just need to make sure to build the FP in an area which is already productive from an OCN standpoint (still hazy on just how cities get numbered now though), and it will help ease corruption from a distance standpoint. If you have a lot of cities around the Palace, and then try to build the FP somewhere off in a completely corrupt area, you won't get much use out of it.

	28-12-2003 06:30									#4
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Nicely put..........the new rank calculations mean old intuition is not that useful. I am itching to get back and test the new patch.

	29-12-2003 02:31									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson It's still useful to build. I try to center the FP in my core in cases where the Palace isn't too well centered, which is most of the time (just about all the time with a Seafaring civ). I see jumps in overall commerce of about 15-20% when building the FP, and that's worth far more than 200 shields. You just need to make sure to build the FP in an area which is already productive from an OCN standpoint (still hazy on just how cities get numbered now though), and it will help ease corruption from a distance standpoint. If you have a lot of cities around the Palace, and then try to build the FP somewhere off in a completely corrupt area, you won't get much use out of it.

Hmmm, I've been using it a tad differently, albeit more expensively. If I have an off-center Palace, I will max out corruption-fighters in the capitol, build a new Palace in the center of my current or desired empire (usually from a MGL, although hand-built once), and then build the FP in the old capitol.

This is the best I've come up with in the absence of two true cores.

	29-12-2003 03:28									#6
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Sure it's still worth it.

We just have to get used to the idea that the FP no longer provides a "second core", but rather a "secondary" one (as ducki put it in another thread).

Although overall we may notice more Corruption than in Play the World (RCP anyone?), I think the game benefits overall. Getting two productive cores up no longer spells the end of the game, as it used to due to the AI's horrible FP placement.


Dominae

Last edited by Dominae on 29-12-2003 at 06:01

	29-12-2003 05:05									#7
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I bet the difficulty for the higher levels just got another slight boost from the change.

	29-12-2003 11:31									#8
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Bah, got cut off and lost my text

Anyway...

I made it improve a small island of a few cities so far, and am considering it's use to extend the main core.
As it only moves the problem now rather than relieving it, it'll tighten the border between core and corrupt. But where there's advantage to be had, I want it

	29-12-2003 17:59									#9
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My first game after the patch turned out to be a arch map and the FP is doing wonders for a decent sized island I took over halfway across the map. While the cities aren't exactly powerhouses, I get enough prodution to make the island self-protecting ad have spent little in the way of gold to get improvements there.

	29-12-2003 23:31									#10
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I am not sure that the change to FP will benefit AI at all.

It provide less benefit for human (obvious) but it will give even lesser benefit to AI. Because now to get any sizable effect you must to place it properly, and this "properly" is very tricky thing. AI definetly are not capable of doing so.

If they wanted to help AI they should have made FP to work the same regardless of placement. For examlple, FP can be built in any city. When it is built corruption through empire is halved: OCN rank for each city is devided by 2 (or optimal OCN is doubled) and distance from palace is treated only as 1/2.

For multiple FP (some mods and conquests): OCN rank and distance are divided by n+1, where is n is number of FP.

	30-12-2003 02:48									#11
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I have heard 2 things.

1. You place the FP close to your core now.

2. You place the FP very far away from your core in very corrupt cities.

So which is it?

Where do you place the FP now?

	30-12-2003 02:55									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Artifex I have heard 2 things. 1. You place the FP close to your core now. 2. You place the FP very far away from your core in very corrupt cities. So which is it? Where do you place the FP now?

Short answer: Wherever you want it.

There have always been many schools of thought about good FP placement. What would constitute a "good" FP placement for one player might not be the same for another. That is magnified even more with the change to the FP with this patch. I would say place it wherever it feels right to you.

	30-12-2003 03:03									#13
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Depends, as always, on the exact layout of your cities and whether you plan a palace jump. Aeson has it right, of course. The FP can now make cities that are not completely corrupt due to rank but which are further away from the capital than the inner core materially better. The FP can't do much for you if you have conquered a large number of cities in other civs. Let me be sure to add that I've a lot to learn about this yet.

	30-12-2003 03:04									#14
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Where the OCN corruption is lower and the distance corruption is higher. Just how the OCN is applied is the question.

(Speculation)

If you capture old cities from someone else, they may be getting low OCN numbers due to their founding dates. I was playing the Rise of Rome Conquest and Carthage cities I was taking over had less corruption than the cities I was building (and in some cases started with) closer to Rome. It also seemed that conquering some of the Carthage cities would raise corruption in some of the Roman cities. Might just be due to playing the Conquest with the beta patch, but if not... If you build the FP in a far away AI's core (conquered by you of course) it would be different than building the FP in corrupt cities that you built in the same location.

Does conquering an AI city hurt the OCN of your own cities that were founded after it?

	30-12-2003 03:57									#15
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It is a bug that the FP doesn't provide a new set of city ranks. The fix was stopping the negative corruption calculation which presented this problem.

The design is that your FP or SPHQ should "reduce corruption" whether its 15 tiles away or on the other side of the map.

	30-12-2003 04:30									#16
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quote: Originally posted by JesseSmith It is a bug that the FP doesn't provide a new set of city ranks. The fix was stopping the negative corruption calculation which presented this problem. The design is that your FP or SPHQ should "reduce corruption" whether its 15 tiles away or on the other side of the map.

Thank you so much for clearing up whether it was intentional or not. Also thanks for all the work that has been done to support this game.

Aggie

	30-12-2003 05:27									#17
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I usually play on huge and generally have taken over a city on as close to the other side of the world as possible for a FP/new palace. and then basically use this as a new center, since inevitably the best resource placements are on the other side of the world from my orig start location (hmph!) this provides a late game boost/chance for survival.

I am getting close to FP startup in my first post-patch game...is the consensus now that FP is worth marginally less?

	30-12-2003 06:10									#18
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Personally, my gut is that if under pre-Conquests that you built the FP the hard way and without intending to palace jump, you'll probably build the FP in the right place in the patch if there were still cities past that point.

(I'd go for something like 50% waste with a Court House and having a GA without a policemen if your Monarchy or Republic and about 40% waste if Democracy.)

And the important aspect is having a large raw production which usually means a city that can grow to 7+ without an aquaduct and a good mixture of food and shields.

quote: Originally posted by DrSpike Nicely put..........the new rank calculations mean old intuition is not that useful. I am itching to get back and test the new patch.

	30-12-2003 06:15									#19
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I'm of the opinion that under 1.12 such a FP placement would have almost no effect unless you had a very loose city placement with lots of holes with no intention on filling.

By contrast that was the ideal location pre-conquests but a leader was needed to get it to build there in a reasonable timeframe there.

quote: Originally posted by EnduringBlue I usually play on huge and generally have taken over a city on as close to the other side of the world as possible for a FP/new palace. and then basically use this as a new center, since inevitably the best resource placements are on the other side of the world from my orig start location (hmph!) this provides a late game boost/chance for survival. I am getting close to FP startup in my first post-patch game...is the consensus now that FP is worth marginally less?

	30-12-2003 07:00									#20
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Fishman2 was right. It is currently wortless with the bug. I built the FP in the "Rise of Rome" scenario only to see no change in corruption. I was PO'ed! I'm gald Firaxis confirmed the bug and will be removing it shortly.

	02-01-2004 23:53									#21
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So there is a bug in 1.12 that makes the FP worthless?

	03-01-2004 03:26									#22
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Pretty much without 1.12 patch. That makes it of some value and worth building when you get around to it.

It actually helps me as I was often tardy about makng the FP and now I do not get punished much for that.