28-12-2003 23:12									#1
	Idea - Overseas Trade routes using trading ships Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Proposed change to the way overseas trade works in Civ 4.

Brief Description.

I would like to see trade conducted via harbors and trading ships, instead of just harbors. i.e. harbor - tradeship - harbor, or harbor - tradeship - tradeship -harbor.


The change involves altering the way harbor type improvements work and introducing a new naval unit the tradeship. This new unit behaves like a worker unit that is consumed when a colony or airfield etc is built. The tradeship has an operational radius (e.g. 10 tiles) and trade can only take place when either harbors or other tradeships are within this radius. It in fact behaves like a harbor but is at sea.

The aim of this proposed change is to make the naval aspect of the game more challenging and hopefully more interesting.


Detailed Description.

The Harbor

This improvement behaves in a similar way to its current way of working. The only change here is that it can not now trade with other harbors. It can only connect to a trade route through a tradeship. To do this the harbor must be built in the operational radius of a tradeship. Two harbors are still needed to conduct trade but they are now connected via one or more tradeships.

Coastal/Sea/Ocean tiles.

The existing restrictions of only being able to trade across sea and ocean tiles when a specific technology id researched will still apply.

The tradeship

This unit is used to connect harbors. It has two phases: 1. movement and 2. static. The best way to understand this is to think of a worker unit. I want to build an airfield. So I build a worker, move it to the required tile (phase 1) and select build airfield, the worker is destroyed an replaced with a static airfield (phase 2).

Phase 1 movement.

The unit is built in coastal cities only. When built it can move on water tiles only. It behaves like a ship and obeys the sea/ocean tile restrictions. No trade is possible when the tradeship is in the movement phase. It should have a defence value in case it is attacked while moving.

The unit also needs two buttons or keyboard commands.

A. Select operational range. When selected the unit highlights in red all the tiles in its operational trading range. This works like the bombardment range of bombers etc. The difference here is it is used so you can check that the harbor or other tradingship you want to connect to is within range before you build the trade route.

B. Build trade route. When selected the moveable tradeship is replaced by a static tradeship. At this point the AI calculates the trade routes that are possible. Checking for harbors and other tradeships. Basically it treats the static tradeship as a harbor.


I decided on using this method of only making the trade routes operational when the tradeship was static for gameplay reasons. If the AI had to recalculate trade routes as the unit moved - the time delays would make the game unplayable. This way it is only like building additional harbors.

Trading with other civs.

To trade with other civs you must ensure you have a tradeship near that civs harbors or tradeships.

The map

As you expand and start to trade with other civs. you will need to build additional tradeships in order to connect more trade routes. You will also need to build more naval units to defend your trade routes.

Defence of the static tradeship.

If possible I would like the static tradeship to have a number of hit points (say 10). Each time it is attacked it loses a hit point. When all hit points are gone it is destroyed and the trade links are lost. The same as if a harbor is destroyed. It would also be nice if it could heal one hit point per turn. This represents the loss of ships in a convoy and the building of new ships.

To destroy a rivals trade route you would need to build a number of attacking ships in order to reduce the number of hit points by more than one per turn.

Increased naval gameplay.

To protect your trade you and the AI will need to build more naval vessels and place these ships on top of the static tradeships, so that these ships are attacked first and of course they can retaliate.

When submarines are available with stealth attack you will then have to start building destroyer screens near you tradeships to try and spot the submarines before they start to attack the tradeship.

This will open up a whole new aspect to the naval part of the game.


Upgrading

Each era should have a new unit to build to represent the increased speed and capacities if ships. Each new trading ship should get increased movement and increased operational range. These values should also be alterable in the editor for mod makers.

e.g. trading galley, galleon, cargo ship, container ship.


Preferences or game set up menus.

For players who are not interested in the naval aspect of the game or for newcomers to the civ series I think there should be an option to turn this feature on or off. If turned off harbors behave as they do now and the tradeships can not be built. An option in the new game set up screens would be the best place. Default off.

	30-12-2003 07:24									#2
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Interesting idea to incorporate trade vessels. Trade vessels are totally unrepresented in Civ. However, one major question remains unanswered: What would you be trading?

Trade in Civ is totally abstracted. The requirement is only two harbors (one for you, one for your trading partner). And one, maybe two WHOLE units of resource or luxury are exchanged.

If this trade ship idea can be meshed with more sophistication in the economics/trading part of the game (I believe there is a *list* for that) then there are some interesting possibilities.

	30-12-2003 08:21									#3
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I want automated GalCiv-style freighters. It would make piracy (and Privateers especially) really cool.

	30-12-2003 08:54									#4
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In my proposal trade is still abstracted as in civ3. The main difference is that two harbors on their own can not trade. They need the new unit the tradeship which is located on a water tile. This tile has to be protected by naval vessels. If you do not want to lose it.

The trade it gives you is the new resource or luxury you have just found on another landmass (on which you have to build a city). As with existing (civ3) harbors you get all resource/luxuries you are connected to via roads/harbors but in civ4 you also need the water tile units. Either coastal/Sea/Ocean depending on which era you are in.

Or it also allows you to trade these (if you have more than one) with other civs on other landmasses (Islands).

The main difference here is that harbors alone are not enough. They need a connecting unit - the tradeship (or series of tradeships). Remember I propose each ship has a limited trading range.

Similar to two PCs in different parts of the world. They need a connecting (or series of connecting) servers to speak to each other.

Last edited by Harrier UK on 30-12-2003 at 09:03

	30-12-2003 09:17									#5
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That's what I was talking about - computer (not AI) controlled "freighters" that move along traderoutes, and can be destroyed. If they are destroyed often enough or can't get to their destination, the trade route "breaks".

	30-12-2003 17:39									#6
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I also would like to see a Galciv-style trading system. It could be divided into land routes, sea routes and even air routes.

	30-12-2003 19:31									#7
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and what are we trading?

Would it be the same whole number increments of luxuries or resources? So either the trade route is *active* or *broken*?

	31-12-2003 07:22									#8
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Shogun Gunner: In my proposal - yes it would be trading the same number of luxuries or resources as we do now in civ3. I am just adding a naval trade element to the game.

Skywalker/Sandman: I have never played or seen Galciv - so can not comment on those aspects of trading.

IMHO - I doubt Atari would want to copy those aspects if they were from another gaming company (Unless Atari produced Galciv !!!).


What we have to keep in mind are that the changes needed to the AI model so it can implement these additions to the game.

I may be wrong here but I guess they will not re-write the AI model for civ4 but just upgrade the civ3+ model.

Civ4 hopefully will have a better AI, much improved Graphics plus new game features.

	31-12-2003 07:29									#9
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quote: I want automated GalCiv-style freighters. It would make piracy (and Privateers especially) really cool.

As for what are we trading.... WE are not trading anything, we are taxing the trade route. We get cash, depending on trade tax rate (or something - but getting good cash from a trade route should have a downside too, or limit the trade route numbers like in GalCiv) and we are giving the other trader cash too, and making them like us more.

-Jam

	31-12-2003 08:22									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner and what are we trading? Would it be the same whole number increments of luxuries or resources? So either the trade route is *active* or *broken*?

Right. If you destroy a certain number of transports within a certain period of time, the trade route "breaks" (or, as it would be explained in-game, it would become unprofitable for the merchants and so they would stop doing it).

Of course, you could also set up just plain "trade routes" with other civs that earn you and them cash.