29-12-2003 06:16									#1
	Googlies inappropriate thread: Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Emperor Palm Springs, CA Apr 1999 time: 16:52 25-12-2003 02:09 | profile | www | pm | search | buddy edit | quote link | report | ip Humane Treatment of Prisoners of Wa Support Apolyton Now that War has broken out it's appropriate to discuss how defeated factions' players get redistributed among the survivors.

Without doubt, in my opinion, one of the most ill advised threads of the ACDG2 from a CMN.

First it was not appropriate
Second it seems to presume a defeated faction
Third from non involved factions/observer factions, the CMN seems to have forecast the outcome of on-going events. This would have an an effect on dip relations with factions, ie the CMN is everywhere has all knowledge therefore knows the outcome.


In my view this has compromised the whole game

	29-12-2003 06:25									#2
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We asked Googlie to start the thread.

	29-12-2003 06:27									#3
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IMHO, Googlie is using the war to discuss what would happen in the event of a defeated faction. Something that needed to be discussed. I don't think his post fortells an outcome, as I don't think anyone knows this outcome.

The first point I do not get. Why was it not appropriate?

The second point I would answer by saying I don't think he does. It is a possibility that there will be a defeated faction, whichever faction it is. Therefore, it is appropriate to discuss what happens in that event. He is simply asking for a discussion on what happens if there is a defeated faction. I think when war breaks out it is appropriate to discuss that.

The third point I understand, however I don't see where in any of Googlie's posts he has said or even hinted at which faction he believes is going to win the war. How is asking for a discussion on defeated faction members if a faction is defeated saying which side he expects to win? The CyCons have naturally gone out saying we expect to win. Googlie has said nothing of the sort.

If you can find and quote any post Googlie has made even hinting at which faction he believes will win I will believe you have a point. At the moment Googlie has acted completely appropriately in asking for a discussion on one of the possible outcomes of the war, without mentioning any factions whatsoever.

I would ask you to either quote what Googlie has said that you feel is inappropriate, and then we can all discuss it, or withdraw your comments.

Last edited by Drogue on 29-12-2003 at 08:29

	29-12-2003 06:33									#4
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quote: Third from non involved factions/observer factions, the CMN seems to have forecast the outcome of on-going events. This would have an an effect on dip relations with factions, ie the CMN is everywhere has all knowledge therefore knows the outcome.

Oh please.
I rule immediately that Googlies thread is perfectly legitimate as the issue will have to be dealt with at some time.
This is a completly frivilous thread.

	29-12-2003 06:45									#5
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From Maniac

quote: We asked Googlie to start the thread.

Excellent so you have control over Googlie. Useful to know.

	29-12-2003 06:50									#6
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Hercules: I will tell you this.
I have seen on numerous occasions where Googlie has spared PEACE his wrath whereas I would not be so forgiving.
Do not be so quick to defame him....
Also...Being his underling, if he were to leave I would take his place. Just remember that next time you call for his head.

	29-12-2003 06:55									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Hercules Excellent so you have control over Googlie. Useful to know.

*sigh*

	29-12-2003 06:58									#8
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quote: I rule immediately that Googlies thread is perfectly legitimate as the issue will have to be dealt with at some time

|||||

Tass: Look at the comments in the thread; the assumption is the Peace faction is bye bye. It's that overarching assumption I object to and to which Googlie seems to have aver. Yeah by all means discuss the issue but it is not appropriate at this time.

	29-12-2003 07:04									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Hercules ||||| Tass: Look at the comments in the thread; the assumption is the Peace faction is bye bye.

Let us look at the thread:

Googlie has not even said the word "PEACE" or "Pirates".
Let us look at his SOLE POST:

quote: Now that War has broken out it's appropriate to discuss how defeated factions' players get redistributed among the survivors. So post thoughts here, and I'll kick off with an opinion, (not a ruling) I think that Faction Officers and turnplayers should be required to join the conquering faction, but that ordinary "citizens" should be able to join any faction of their choice. Of course, whether such players choose to become inert (or ert, for that matter) cannot be legislated. Thoughts everyone?? G.

No faction is mentioned implied. In fact, the only subject disccused is how to deal with members of a conquered faction.
Others in the thread may think PEACE is history, but Googlie is not responsible for their words.
If I create a thread about....About what to do with spies and someone comes in and posts their factions password, one cannot blame ME for them posting it.

In short; Googlie is innocent of all your little charges against him, and I have ruled as such. If you do not wish to accept my ruling, you may take it up with Googlie. Otherwise: DEAL.

quote: . Yeah by all means discuss the issue but it is not appropriate at this time.

Oh no. Two factions being at war and all definitely isn't the appropriate time.
Let's discuss it when a faction is already conquered and have the game sit still while we debate! Great idea.

This thread has almost outlived it's usefulness.

	29-12-2003 07:12									#10
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Humane Treatment of Prisoners of War
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Now that War has broken out it's appropriate to discuss how defeated factions' players get
redistributed among the survivors.

So post thoughts here, and I'll kick off with an opinion, (not a ruling)

I think that Faction Officers and turnplayers should be required to join the conquering faction,
but that ordinary "citizens" should be able to join any faction of their choice.

Of course, whether such players choose to become inert (or ert, for that matter) cannot be
legislated.

Thoughts everyone??

]

	29-12-2003 07:17									#11
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If you wish, I can break down his post into individual pieces and analyize their meaning as well as how they interrelate with the other pieces.

However this would displease me. Severely.

	29-12-2003 07:38									#12
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quote: Emperor Around Gent, Belgium Jul 1999 time: 03:30 27-12-2003 01:04 | profile | mail | pm | search | buddy edit | quote link | report | ip Support Apolyton quote: Most team-DG's I've seen work on the principle that when you faction is defeated, you are defeated, and like a PBEM, you no longer continue to take part in it. Indeed. But since this ACDTG isn't suffering from an abundance of active participants, it is the official Consciousness opinion that we would prefer to give members of a conquered faction the option to join their conqueror. In our specific case, this can be perfectly explained by the process of assimilation. A pity we haven't heard the opinion of a pirate yet.

Why is it a pity. Unless this whole thread is to do with the after life of dead pirates

	29-12-2003 07:47									#13
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I'll tell you about pity: It is pitiful you are trying to construe things so much as to the point that GooglieGod is at fault for Maniacs post.
No. Maniac:

1. Was well within his rights to say such a thing.
2. Is responsible for his own words as I'm sure he'll agree to.

You are only hurting your own reputation by trying to defame Googliegod whom I'm sure everyone will agree has done a superb job.
Which is really the only reason why this thread is still open.

	29-12-2003 07:49									#14
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quote: the CMN seems to have forecast the outcome of on-going events. This would have an an effect on dip relations with factions, ie the CMN is everywhere has all knowledge therefore knows the outcome.

I really don't like to quote myself but this is not saying who wins or who Googlie thinks will win but there is an implication that Peace are the 'doomed' faction.

Also btw As most players should know, I have the utmost most respect for Googlie.

	29-12-2003 07:53									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Hercules I really don't like to quote myself but this is not saying who wins or who Googlie thinks will win but there is an implication that Peace are the 'doomed' faction.

And you are trying to blame Googlie for it. Do not insult my intelligence by attempting any refutation. The mere title of this thread has already exposed your intentions.

But for the sake of argument let us assume you are not trying to imply Googliegod responsible. What do you want then? Are you merely whining that people think that PEACE has no chance? We the moderators can do nothing, for they may say what they wish. It is no different than PEACE saying that CyCon will lose this war.

quote: Also btw As most players should know, I have the utmost most respect for Googlie.

Of course My apologies. I suppose I'm reading a bit too far into comments such as

quote: Excellent so you have control over Googlie. Useful to know.

and

quote: Without doubt, in my opinion, one of the most ill advised threads of the ACDG2 from a CMN.

Is it your tradition to treat those you have "utmost' respect for with almost complete contempt?

	29-12-2003 07:56									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Hercules Excellent so you have control over Googlie. Useful to know.

No, we wished to know what would happen if a faction was defeated, since we were discussing if we would allow PEACE members to join or, or if we would try to join other factions, in the event of a defeat.

quote: Originally posted by Hercules Tass: Look at the comments in the thread; the assumption is the Peace faction is bye bye.

By people who happento be CyCons. Of course we're going to say "we're going to win the war". It's like routing for your favourite football team. It is also not under Googlie's control. If you object to what we've said, tell us. Otherwise leave Googlie out of it. If you're objecting to CyCon members saying we're going to win why don't you counter. At least we're giving our side when you can't reply, as happened earlier. If you think you're going to win, post it.

quote: Originally posted by Hercules It's that overarching assumption I object to and to which Googlie seems to have aver.

On what evidence? Where has Googlie said anything at all about his opinion on it? Quote where he has hinted that he believes the CyCon will win or withdraw your comments.

quote: Originally posted by Hercules Yeah by all means discuss the issue but it is not appropriate at this time.

Why not? Are we to get a defeated faction before we decide what can happen? Are we to wait until a faction leader has let in an ex-member of a defeated faction before we consider it? We'd better debate it now, because it could happen soon.

quote: Originally posted by Hercules Why is it a pity. Unless this whole thread is to do with the after life of dead pirates

It's a pity because the two sides in the war are most likely to be affected by this ruling. Whichever side wins.

Moreover, that was Maniac's post with my quote. We are welcome to be pro-CyCon, since we are CyCons. That isn't anything to do with Googlie.

	29-12-2003 08:00									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Hercules I really don't like to quote myself but this is not saying who wins or who Googlie thinks will win but there is an implication that Peace are the 'doomed' faction.

Yes, the CyCon are implying that. We are entitled to, as you are entitled to imply that CyCon's are doomed. What has this to do with Googlie though?

As I said, show me a why Googlie's thread is inappropriate, a quote on where he has been biased, or even slightly improper, or withdraw your allegation. I have no idea where you have got the idea from that Googlie's thread was inappropriate, or that he is responsible for the opinions of the CyCons posting.

	29-12-2003 08:08									#18
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quote: At the moment I Googlie has acted completely appropriately in asking for a discussion on one of the possible outcomes of the war, without mentioning any factions whatsoever.

Hmmmm interesting.

	29-12-2003 09:15									#19
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Let's get something accurate here. My view (not necessarily)Peace view is that Googlies's thread was inappropriate. That doesn't say it is right or wrong, it just says it is inappropriate.

It (this thread) attempts to say why it is is inappropriate.

1 Why now? Well we now know it was prompted by Maniac or Cycon after they initiated a war against Peace (as part of the Pr machine (echos anyone))
2 Inadvertantly Googlie became part of the 'legitimate' Cycon PR Machine, (fair enough, but we can question its neutrality). (though credit to good Cycon PR media manipulation management).
3) Pirate restraint, If a neutral thread why were there some awfully anxious to hear Pirate views on matters.
4) Most posters to Googlies' thread seem to take to the theme that the Pirate faction was finished and it was a question of what to do with possibly troublesome faction members afterwards. So when has battle suddenly become complete and final war.


Googlie should have given more thought to the implications of his (prompted) thread. in my view.

	29-12-2003 09:35									#20
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Hercules: Googlie is the supreme god of this game. He may do whatever he wishes as long as it does not violate the rules of the game and even then there are circumstances when he can violate the rules.
CyCon put forth a question that was probably going ot be asked by many, and Googlie created a thread. CyCon then proceeded to post in that thread that they were going to win.
Googlie could not control that.

Your pitiful attempts to try to undermine his reputation have backfired. Why do you persist?

	29-12-2003 09:40									#21
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As the function who initialy asked Googlie if their was any kind of policy on reintigration of players should their team be eliminated I feel I should jump into this thread even though its been beat to death already

The Cycons are ofcorse belive of that PEACE will be defeated, and naturaly we began to wonder what would happen to the Players in PEACE. So we asked Googlie what would happen to them. Googlie informed us that their was no official position on it. So in a spirit of caring we asked to have this issue raised so that member of the PEACE faction might be able to continue partispating in and enjoying the ACDTG in some form. We also hoped that we might gain members as the resent Breakdown of Uni has indicated are realy a vital resorce.

We asked that Googlie NOT begin discussing this topic untill AFTER war had been declared so as not to tip anyone off prematurely. Googlie was completly apropriate in waiting untill now.

This issue is of far to great an importance to simply be handeled by Imperial Decree when it actualy happens. It would be unfair to everyone involved and Googlie would be unlikly to make a choice the comunity would accepted without first reciving people opinions.

If we ACTUALY did control Googlie as Hercules sugjests then we would have no incentive to have this topic raised and would simply have Googlie issue some kind of Fiate that conformed to our wishes. Instead this topic will be discused thourogly by the whole comunity.

Given that I belive Googlies actions were apropriate I can still empathise with the PEACE position. Googlie can not avoid revealing the fact that the elimination of one of the games factions is now a destinct Posibility with the raising of this issue. Because Cycon is the agressor in this war its is obvius that PEACE is the one in danger of elimination. A "defeat" for Cycon in this context would be a failure to fully concour PEACE. A PEACE victory would be to hold their bases, but it definatly won't consist of Concouring the Cycon Empire.


Hercules has himself all but confirmed this line of thought by raising issue with Googlies post. Googlie spoke of only the posibility of eliminated factions, Cycon pontificated on their inevitable victory and from this Hercules has drawn the conclusion that Googlie belives that Cycon will be victorious, obviosly Hercules did not consider for a moment that Cycon would be the faction that might be eliminated, only that his own faction was potentialy in danger and that Googlie doupted their ability to survive. In my mind Hercules has done more to strengthin my alreadly considerable belife in Cycon victory then any action Googlie has taken.

	29-12-2003 09:58									#22
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Well I guess I'm too late to discover this thread. Anyway I would like to share my 2 cents as a member of a third faction who is not involved in this war.

Hercules: I'd like to offer my opinion that when I first read Googlie's starting post, I have not had the impression that he was hinting that PEACE would be defeated. The impression that that thread is anti-PEACE I blieve is because lots of CC members posted in it while few PEACE member had posted.

While I think it may be a reasonable conjestion for people that since CC started this war that must mean that they are well prepared for it and have a better chance of winning, as far as I'm concerned, I still don't know what the outcome of the war will be. And I do not believe that the Googlie thread under question has given us more information.

I hope this will eliviate some of your concerns as I'm from a third faction.

	29-12-2003 10:13									#23
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quote: The Cycons are ofcorse belive of that PEACE will be defeated, and naturaly we began to wonder what would happen to the Players in PEACE. So we asked Googlie what would happen to them. Googlie informed us that their was no official position on it. So in a spirit of caring we asked to have this issue raised so that member of the PEACE faction might be able to continue partispating in and enjoying the ACDTG in some form. We also hoped that we might gain members as the resent Breakdown of Uni has indicated are realy a vital resorce. We asked that Googlie NOT begin discussing this topic untill AFTER war had been declared so as not to tip anyone off prematurely. Googlie was completly apropriate in waiting untill now.

You've made my point. Media Control.

Also the issue about beaten factions was discussed away back in the early discussions, so it was a surprise for it to pop up again in the general forum.

	29-12-2003 10:27									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Hercules You've made my point. Media Control.

No Hercules. You've made MY point.

	29-12-2003 10:29									#25
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Well aparently no Consensus position was reached, also note that I only joined the the Game 2 months ago. Naturaly the CMN is ther person to ask about a topic like that and if he says their is no official position on it then there is non as he would have to make it.

Also dont you think it would have been suspicicius for Googlie to suddenly raise the issue BEFORE we declared war. If anything that would seem to project an even lower opinion of PEACE's survival chances. Need Googlie wait untill your down to your last base to begin the debate? Likly by then many of your members would have become disalusioned and inactive if they did not have assurances they could continue the game in some form and the whole debate would have been moot.

	29-12-2003 10:36									#26
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Honghu: The issue here is perception. Personally I know we are well capable of rebuffing the Cycon, but the views of our allies are important. So the launch of such a thread by Googlie at this time (at the Cycon behest), by its very content and the sweep of Cycon follow on input was designed to damage Pirate standing.

My argument is that Googlie was an unwitting implement of Cycon propoganda. hence, why I thought it (the thread) inappropriate (at this time).


Now, I realise we will have to improve on our public image. Other factions who have dealt with us know we have an sound reputation in dealings, in spite of the xenorum facade.

	29-12-2003 10:40									#27
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Something unfortunate appears to be happening. Somehow, Hercules' suggestion that the thread could have waited till later seems to have been blown up into supposed allegations of conspiracy. Keeping in mind that the good captain has been a bit excitable since that unfortunate mindworm incident, read his posts carefully for content.

quote: Tassadar : [QUOTE] Hercules: You've made my point. Media Control. [/QOUTE] No Hercules. You've made MY point. .

Apparently Tassadar doesn't appreciate the Captain's subtle wit.

	29-12-2003 14:33									#28
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Peace? Cycon?
You folk are too shortsighted. It's about where the players will go when THE HIVE wins over you all!

	29-12-2003 15:27									#29
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One step at a time Enigma.
btw have you managed to decrypt my message yet

	29-12-2003 15:33									#30
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quote: Originally posted by foolish_icarus that unfortunate mindworm incident

Mind worm incident?


Anyway Hercules, would you have objected to it if a cyborg started the thread instead of Googlie? Then you couldn't accuse him of being under our control. However the risk would've been that since the thread wasn't made by an official neutral person, the issue of defeated factions might not be thoroughly discussed. Then a decision about it would have to wait until a faction is actually defeated, which is - as already stated by many others - way too late.