29-12-2003 09:29									#1
	Revised Tech Planning Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Our Old Tech Plan

We have a treaty with CGN to trade them Invention + Gunpowder for Chivalry, Theology, and Education. We have agreements to give some of the techs early, as they have given us Chiv before we finished Invention.

We will finish Invention in 13 turns.

CFC will front us GPT so that we can go max science.

CFC will 40 turn research something ... just nothing at this time as nothing is available YET (something we need to work on for them)

After that, at 100% science, we can get Gunpowder in @15 turns.

So CGN gets Gunpowder to fight GWT (who's in their GA and about to get Chivalry) in, oh, 28 turns.

That's a long time

New Tech Plan

This is something we've bounced around in chat, and I'd like to post it here for discussion.

What if CGN gives us Theo, we give them Invention, we let them do Gunpowder and we do Eduction? We would then trade those two techs once aquired.

We would also gift Education to CFC (per our agreement) and they could 40 turn research one of the many off-shoots of that tech.

We get the same techs and probably get them faster. We also get CFC on the right course.

Please discuss.

--Togas

	29-12-2003 09:35									#2
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Discussed this idea in chat with Miccofl (with Trip and BigFree in attendance). They agree to this change. If we agree, we should let them know ASAP.

--Togas

	29-12-2003 09:53									#3
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It sounds promising, however I would not want to be caught short on GP should the poo hit the feather waving slave.

	29-12-2003 09:56									#4
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Very good idea.

	29-12-2003 10:00									#5
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This works. Though the rate at which we can resaerch techs is dependent upon us recieving peace from GCA (no lux slider) and the amoun of gpt we get from CFC. Again, I state that we need to get an actual gpt deal, and not a lump sum or lump sums every turn, from CFC in order to increase our max science rate. With a gpt deal that amount is added directly into our "income" and can be used to increase our spending on science.

	29-12-2003 23:24									#6
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Togas,

Read the transcript of your chat with miccofl. I like the idea and it sounds like miccofl has already signed off on it. You have my approval.

	30-12-2003 02:01									#7
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So, the trick is not only to get more techs in the end, but also to boost CGN's army in their war with GWT? Nice.

Does CGN have Theology already or are they working on it?

Your plan should be checked with both CGN and CFC. If they both agree, it basically us+CGN+CFC against GWT (and a very weak GCA), with CGN catching the blows for us. Again, nice.

	30-12-2003 02:03									#8
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by BigFree This works. Though the rate at which we can resaerch techs is dependent upon us recieving peace from GCA (no lux slider) and the amoun of gpt we get from CFC. Again, I state that we need to get an actual gpt deal, and not a lump sum or lump sums every turn, from CFC in order to increase our max science rate. With a gpt deal that amount is added directly into our "income" and can be used to increase our spending on science.

This was wrong.

Although it does count as "income" it still cannot be applied to the sliders. I thought all income could be applied to the sliders. Let me explain how it works with the use of a F1 screen from another game.



You can see the "Income" here is 1002.

1002 comes from the commerce being generated by your cities (967) and the gold coming from interest (35).

The amount that can be spent on science, while at 100%, is 801. 801 is 967(income from cities) minus 166(corruption). So, no matter what your "income is, you cannot spend anything more on science that what your income from cities minus corruption is. The 35 gold from "interest" cannot be applied and it goes directly to the treasury and is not available to be applied to the slider.

But, there's also another catch as illustrated by the next F1 screen.



The amount of income from cities depends on what your slider is set at. This happens because of Marketplaces and Libraries and the like. Those improvements change the amount of commerce from every city based upon each of those improvements they have. So, if you have more Marketplaces than Libraries, you would see your total income go up as you reduced the science slider. The opposite would happen if you had more Libraries.

In the second pic, of the same turn with no WF changes, the Science slider is at 40% and the income from cities has increased to 1014. A small increase, but still indicative of the fact that I have more Marketplaces's than Libraries in my Civ. The amount of income from cities went up from each rung I stepped the Science slider down.

The moral of the story is that you can not spend more on science than what your toal income from cities is (minus corruption). Your total income is dependent upon what you have your Science slider set at and how many Marketplaces and Libraries and other like improvements you have in your Civ and what the corruption rates are for those cities.

What you have in your treasury will pay for maintenance, unit costs and gpt deals to other Civs and cannot be applied towards Science or Entertainment. When you go 100% on any slider, you are putting the burden all of the upkeep costs on your treasury.

	30-12-2003 03:12									#9
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

E_T,

What about the "From other civs" income? Can you set it up so that you first do max science without any gpt from other civs, then get a ton of gpt from a civ and recheck your max science?

--Togas

	30-12-2003 04:05									#10
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Hmm, ET never posted in this thread....

But I can cheack that to make sure....

	30-12-2003 04:19									#11
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Ok, I checked. Income from other Civ's cannot be used towards the slider. No income, other than that from your own cities, can be used on the slider.

There's also a bug that I seem to have found. When I set a city to use a Scientist, the resultant beaker does not show up on the F1 screen. It most likely gets tabulated into the total count, but it does not show on the F1 screen at all anywhere! This is in PTW with patch 1.27.

	30-12-2003 05:16									#12
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Ok, I checked. Income from other Civ's cannot be used towards the slider. No income, other than that from your own cities, can be used on the slider.

This was already known. Income from other civs has a primary use for either stockpiling cash and/or maintaining a zero budget balance (or at least closer to zero) to make up for high research and/or luxury slider settings.

	30-12-2003 05:24									#13
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one of the reasons why the Marketplaces are being built now (and the Libraries later), to help take advantage of the increased taxes, especially while we are REXing.

E_T

	30-12-2003 05:33									#14
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Since we're going to be doing a lot of deficit research with CFC's assistance (at 100% science), Libraries would be more valuable than Markets once we finish Invention in 13 turns.

	30-12-2003 05:42									#15
	Tired of ads?

But it looks to me like we need Market Places for happiness anyway judging by the screen shots. (Or is most of that unhappiness from war werriousness?)

	30-12-2003 06:17									#16
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn But it looks to me like we need Market Places for happiness anyway judging by the screen shots. (Or is most of that unhappiness from war werriousness?)

With no war weariness we do not need the lux slider at all.

We will need either a Market or the lux slider in Karina and Apolyton until we either make peace with GCA or build Markets. However, Karina is doing the FP for another ~20 turns, so even if we build Markets in all of our other cities we will not be able to turn down the lux slider without peace.

Once we finish Invention in 13 turns we will likely be doing 100% research for the next two techs after that. During that time, we will be deriving no benefit from the Markets, while they will be costing us money doing nothing.

That is why we should be building Libraries now and do the Markets later, once we turn the research slider back down.

	30-12-2003 06:24									#17
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos This was already known.

Of course, you are god...

Some people do not know it all. Some people read these threads and come away with more knowledge. Some people contribute to these threads with information that some people do not already know.

	30-12-2003 13:11									#18
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That did come off a bit arrogantly, didn't it? My apologies.

	30-12-2003 13:27									#19
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CFC should do Marketplaces. We should build Libraries. Then, proceed with the 'GPT for tech' plans.

	09-01-2004 05:17									#20
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CFC will be starting 40-turn research on Monarchy this coming turn.

Just a summary of the current plan:

CGN is doing Theology (was going to be 7-8 turns, they'll now be slowing to match our completion of Invention). CFC is doing nothing now (in Anarchy, out in 3 turns). After we complete Invention, we will trade Invention to CGN for Theology. We will then begin Education (~10 turns?) and CGN will begin Gunpowder, which we will trade after completion.

	09-01-2004 17:48									#21
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quote: CFC is doing nothing now (in Anarchy, out in 3 turns).

I hope they're at least using 1 scientist.

-Arrian

	10-01-2004 00:41									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I hope they're at least using 1 scientist.

They will be with Monarchy starting this turn.