06-01-2004 03:23									#31
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Urgh! Last night I ran into the one downside of an ultra early Pyramids. I was playing as the Celts for the first time in C3C and completely forgot that they added agriculture to it's GA flags. I received an SGL on my first tech research and proceeded to build the Pyramids...and start my GA with only a size 3 city and a size 1 city. I was so irritated with myself for forgetting that I started a different game and abandoned the original.

	06-01-2004 04:01									#32
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Welcome to the club. It is very hard to avoid an early GA with most of the Civs from C3C. If you luck out to get an SGL and use it for the most useful wonder you get the ultra early GA with many of them.

I guess it means deity level so you won't have to worry about wonders in the ancient age, becasue even Demi can allow it.

	06-01-2004 04:12									#33
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I usually play emperor so I don't often get the chance to build the Pyramids anyway. Or at least I don't often try to build it with a straight city-build.

Sigh. The worst thing was that the game had been going great until my mistake. A decent if not humongously great starting position, lots of expansion room to the north (and several luxuries up there), and my second city was a settler popped from a hut.

	06-01-2004 06:05									#34
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Why'd you give it up? Sounded like it could have been loads of fun (unless you hate the early wins sorts of game where the conclusion is foregone but a ways off).

IIRC, you played the "No GA" AU game and so know that a GA is a nice bonus but not anything required or even uber-powerful. Your ultra-early GA would be stronger than a no-GA game even if it felt somewhat wasted.

Catt

	06-01-2004 06:17									#35
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I was irritated with myself for making a dumb mistake. I could play it out, but I'll have to go back and check if I have a save from right after getting the SGL and rushing the Pyramids. I know I have one from after getting the settler from the hut, but I don't think I could replay the exact moves that would lead back to getting the SGL (since it's RNG driven). I suppose I could also play it out without getting the SGL and the Pyramids, but then it would just feel wrong if you know what I mean. I hate reloading even if I make a mistake. I usually try to live with them when I make them (notice I didn't say 'if' ), but totally forgetting that wonder would start an ultra-early GA was a rather large mistake.

I did play the no GA game and it was one of my all-time favorites because it was a hard-fought win. Those are the best.

	06-01-2004 07:02									#36
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The Pyramids are worth far more than a GA! With the Pyramids you're likely to keep close to 2x the population growth through the Ancient Era, which will come close to doubling your commerce and production when it's most important.

And you still get your Despotic GA, which isn't as bad as people make it out to be. The advantages are smaller, but so is the scale of the game. 1 or 2 extra cities (which is pretty easy to leverage a Despotic GA into militarily or economically) when you are at 1000BC means you're going to have a the capability of a 'psuedo GA' for the rest of the game of around 10-20% (assuming around 10 cities at that point).

With the changes to specialists in C3C, and the free tech of Philosophy, the advantages of the Pyramids and an early GA are much more than in vanilla/PtW, even with the lessened power of the FP. It used to be that your population growth would hit the corruption limit at some point and stop being as useful, but now corrupt specialist cities are powerhouses in their own right.

You can never have too much population growth.

	06-01-2004 10:59									#37
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Aeson your analyse is correct, but Rhothaerill only had two cities.
A size 3 and a size 1, so that is about as animic of a GA as you are likely to get.

I did the same thing, but had 4 or 5 cities and had a pump and the capitol pump, so I could get a few more cities up and more tiles mined and worked before the 20 turns ran out.

This let me do fine as you point out, but 2 cities is pushing it. If only the SGL could be held off for a time beofre slaming in the wonder.

	06-01-2004 11:26									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson The Pyramids are worth far more than a GA! With the Pyramids you're likely to keep close to 2x the population growth through the Ancient Era, which will come close to doubling your commerce and production when it's most important. And you still get your Despotic GA, which isn't as bad as people make it out to be. The advantages are smaller, but so is the scale of the game. 1 or 2 extra cities (which is pretty easy to leverage a Despotic GA into militarily or economically) when you are at 1000BC means you're going to have a the capability of a 'psuedo GA' for the rest of the game of around 10-20% (assuming around 10 cities at that point). With the changes to specialists in C3C, and the free tech of Philosophy, the advantages of the Pyramids and an early GA are much more than in vanilla/PtW, even with the lessened power of the FP. It used to be that your population growth would hit the corruption limit at some point and stop being as useful, but now corrupt specialist cities are powerhouses in their own right. You can never have too much population growth.

I know the Pyramids are very much worth it, but if I had remembered the GA flag I would have done things differently. I was already setting my capitol up as a pump city and was very close to completing a granary (three turns IIRC), and my second city was being set up as a production city designed for units. As vmxa1 said, I only had two small cities with minimal tile improvements as this was an ultra-early SGL. If I had held onto the SGL long enough to set up a couple more cities with some tile improvements then I would have had the best of both worlds regarding Pyramids and GA.

	06-01-2004 11:46									#39
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Depends entirely on what you want ToA for. For the culture total and happiness throughout, it won't be worth it. For borders, getting the entertainers off the tiles a while and getting a short term culture boost, it's ideal

Brings to mind an interesting concept...something that happened in an online game. Basically, two players had TOTALLY opposing strategies, and yet - both were doing fantastically well. The players who WEREN'T doing so well, were actually the ones who either tried to mix the two opposites, or had no clear plan

So I guess it's not just a case of trying to justify an obscure point of view (mine, normally ), but actually a valid point. The players who might lose out are not the ardent ToA supporters or the anti-ToA crowd, but in fact the players who have shots at wonders/big ground forces/whatever you spend your surplus on and don't maximise the choice they DO make...

I personally view the wonders in terms of what they can give me, an dhow surely they can give it to me. Great Library is worthless if the AI decides to play dumb with tech and stagnate, or if one civ ges mad while the others fall behind (the normal case for me). On the other hand, the Pyramids are ALWAYS a good investment, in terms of all the free resources that would otherwise have been spent on making the granaries (e.g. 60 shields x 20 cities = MEGA payback ) and in terms of the extra resources acquired because of the early growth. It can be tough to itemise such things, but some idea is usually possible, so it's easy to see that, for example, the benefits had from the Pyramids will EASILY outweigh the benefits had from the Great Wall, seeing as the free walls are a) cheap and b) rarely ever used.

Anyway

On that note, it makes Adam Smith's GREAT for me, because then I can now time and effort on getting Stock Exchanges in place where there's only a 2-3 gold payback, and of course that a couple hundred gold is coming back to me that was previosuly going into maintenance before. My usual excessive needs for more units explains my desires for Knights Templar, and any wonder that gives out free stuff over a whole continent is good by me, with the exception of the Great Wall, seeing how I rarely need a wall or two at most, and they're easy to rush - even pop rush

So I like free stuff...

	06-01-2004 18:29									#40
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I built Knights Templar for the first time in a recent game. Do you have a specific strategy for your Crusaders? Does it somehow involve their unique fortress-building ability? I think I wasted several of my crusaders in coming to the aid of an ally.

	06-01-2004 18:53									#41
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I'm not saying it's best to build it that early, just that it certainly isn't a 'mistake' to end your game. You'll still be much better off in the long run than if you didn't get the SGL and had a better timed GA but no Pyramids.

	06-01-2004 19:33									#42
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Chiming in rather late:

favourite ancient wonder is definitely the pyramids. Every game where I've had them, I've dominated from start to finish. Don't get them very often though. Colossus is nice to have, likewise the Great Library, but neither is as dramatic as the pyramids. Lighthouse on some maps. None of the other ancient wonders excite me, although I haven't played Conquests yet, so haven't seen the Statue of Zeus in action.

Middle ages, they're all good (aside from Shakespeare's Theatre). The science wonders I can live without, but the big four (Sun Tzu, Leo's, Bach's and Sistine) I try my hardest to get. Usually get Sun Tzu's rather than Leo's, and usually wish I'd done it the other way around when I see how much it is going to cost to upgrade all those pikes to muskets and horses to knights or cavalry. It's the era of very expensive upgrading. Adam Smith's is also nice. Magellan's is a very low priority for me.

Industrial era, there is only one way to go. Get Theory of Evolution, select Atomic Theory and Electronics as the free techs, and build the Hoover Dam before the AI has even heard of electricity. Hoover is very powerful, although at a stage where the game is usually over in essence. ToE itself isn't much, but getting it is equivalent to getting Hoover. Come to think of it, I think the only game I've played where I didn't get both was in a one city challenge... and I'm not sure I didn't get Hoover then anyway to save a few gold per turn on a hydro plant. Suffrage is also nice - I notice the difference if I get stuck in an infantry war withouth it, but it's not in the same league as Hoover.

Like others have said - almost none of these wonders are 'must have'. You can win with them all going to other civs: you just have to work at it a little more. They are nice bonuses, but not much more. The one exception to that I think is the pyramids - the only reason this isn't considered vastly overpowered is because a) it is possible to not take advantage of it properly (by not letting your cities grow as fast as possible), and b) the effect of it isn't obviously linked to the wonder. You just find that, sometime in the middle ages, that you have a larger army than your neighbours, a much higher score, and a far better economy and research machine, and think to yourself "I've done a really good job of expanding and developing my cities this game" - little realising that without the pyramids you would have less production per city, have captured less land in the REX, struggled more in wars, and generally had about half the manufacturing and ecnomic power you currently have at this point.

	06-01-2004 20:24									#43
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Vulture:

If and when you get Conquests, I think you will find SoZ to provide a LOT of bang for the buck, and Shakespeares is no longer useless. In addition to lots of content people & culture, it now acts as a hospital. It's still not particularly important, but it's a little nicer now.

The wonders I really care about:

Pyramids
Sun Tzu
Sistine
Leos
Bach
Smith
Hoover
UN (clearly)

-Arrian

	06-01-2004 20:26									#44
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quote: Originally posted by vulture Middle ages, they're all good (aside from Shakespeare's Theatre).

I actually quite like the new Shakespeare's in and of itself. Getting to the tech is a bit out of the way for most of my games, but being able to grow beyond Size 12 AND stay happy at that stage in the game can give you a serious powerhouse of a city and maybe set you up to steal some of those "lower priority" Science wonders. The old Theater, I agree, needed a boost, and Conquests gave it a good one, IMO. (Edit: Dang, Arrian beat me to it. )

quote: Industrial era, there is only one way to go. Get Theory of Evolution, select Atomic Theory and Electronics as the free techs, and build the Hoover Dam

This is in serious need of fixing. For all the valid options a player has up to this point, having a wonder-tech-wonder combination this overpowered means, as you say, there is only one way to go. Too sad.

	06-01-2004 22:28									#45
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I am starting to think Leo's is more useful to me than Sun Tzu. So many upgrades now with MI and Guerillas and the cost of upgrading knights and calvs.

I am not so sure I need all those free barracks.

	06-01-2004 23:13									#46
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I'd agree with that. The main reason I like Sun Tzu is for ease of mass upgrades later in the game, and for insta-barracks in captured towns. It's more about convenience than a significant strategic edge.

-Arrian

	07-01-2004 04:16									#47
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Yeah it is nice to not have to move units around to upgrade them.
The good news is that you will have rails. Plus the barracks are not given in other lands, where they are really needed. If it was pangea, I may have to reconsider.

	07-01-2004 05:13									#48
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I always play emperor, but I´m not really good at it so
I aways try to build the GL because otherwise I get to far behind in tech, when it expires I´m usually up to speed with the AI so I feel it´s really the right wonder for me... I don´t try to bulid the Pyramids that often because the AI would probably just beat me to it with their production bonus, am I beeing to paranoid here?

in the middle ages I really want Sistine´s and Bach´s, but it wont break my game in any way if I don´t get them...

in the industrial age I try to build, like everyone else, ToE and Hoover

the UN is the only thing you can bulid that has any real use, didn´t build it in my last game and I was very scared of losing to diplo until I finally launched my space ship

conclusion: I really like the GL, if I don´t get that it can get really ugly, I should probably try to avoid it in some games so that I can learn to live without it

	07-01-2004 10:05									#49
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The UN is a must for me as I will have very poor relations but then and surely lose any vote.

	07-01-2004 10:11									#50
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Just out of curiousity, if everyone is building the UN simply to avoid a vote, wouldn't it be easier to just disable Diplo Victory?

	07-01-2004 11:52									#51
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Ancient Era
----------------
The Pyramids

Medieval Era
----------------
Sun Tzu's Art of War
Adam Smith's Trading Company
Magelan's Voyage
Leonardo's Workshop

Industrial Era
-----------------
Theory of Evolutiion
Hoover Dam


Modern Era
----------------
The Internet

	07-01-2004 12:35									#52
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quote: Originally posted by ducki Just out of curiousity, if everyone is building the UN simply to avoid a vote, wouldn't it be easier to just disable Diplo Victory?

I often do, but decided to give the AI some chance. Maybe it can sneak the UN in with a leader or something.

	07-01-2004 23:07									#53
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quote: Originally posted by ducki Just out of curiousity, if everyone is building the UN simply to avoid a vote, wouldn't it be easier to just disable Diplo Victory?

Then you make it easier on yourself -- without the risk of an AI building the UN and calling a vote, your freedom of action is significantly strengthened.

Catt

	08-01-2004 00:07									#54
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I play Demigod/Deity now. I'm also usually playing for the quickest win.

The Pyramids are fantastic when you get them, but it's not easy, so most of the time I have to do without this gem. It's the only Ancient era Wonder I would consider shaping my strategy around (i.e. really boost one city in order to secure it, at the expense of growth/military/efficiency).

The only Medieval era Wonder really worth building is Leo's. The other ones I can do without until I've captured them with my cheaply-upgraded forces. In case some of you are not aware, Leo's is even better with Conquests (and that's saying a lot). Of course, this is different if I'm playing some sort of peaceful game, but that's rare.

In the Industrial era it's all about the Theory of Evolution. It's ridiculously powerful, and I must get it. Unfortunately, I almost always do.

If the game lasts into the Modern era, I'm probably going for a Spaceship win and so, like others, I need to secure the UN to be on the safe side. But then, of course, I typically build Apollo, since it takes too long to wait for the AI to do so.


Dominae

Last edited by Dominae on 08-01-2004 at 04:27

	08-01-2004 03:07									#55
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The Apollo you gotta build for yourself anyway. The UN victory I disable, it is simply too lame and even if you do win the vote, there's no satisfaction. I'd rather have it that the UN gives you lots of diplomatic bonuses, and the diplomatic win be like the one in CTP2 where you make an alliance with every player.

	08-01-2004 04:24									#56
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Smiley the point is if you disable it you get a break as the AI cannot defeat you with a vote and you can ignore the whole thing. With it on, you may have to go for the UN instead of one of the other wonders and change your research path a bit.

Dom I posted the same thing in a thread about wonders. That Leo's is much more useful than it use to be with C3C upgrade cost. Not so strong as it was in Civ2, but getting there.

	08-01-2004 04:42									#57
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I disable the diplomatic victory more times than not. I don’t particularly like the idea that there is a single wonder in the game that I must get or risk losing. And, like many here, watching 20 or 30 hours of game play go down the tubes due to what is basically (it seems to me anyway) a roll of the dice, just won’t do.

	08-01-2004 14:43									#58
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You don't necessarily have to get the UN to avoid losing by diplo - it depends on how well behaved you've been (or how efficient you've been at wiping out civs you've been at war with, and avoiding war with the rest), and whether you can organise a dogpile on your main competitor to try and force a stalemate. There are ways around the problem.

Admittedly, the easiest is to build the UN yourself, of course.

	08-01-2004 15:19									#59
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In PTW I'd win over 90% of Monarch games with the UN victory without the slightly-cheap 'dogpile diplomacy' (signing up everyone possible in a last-minute Military Alliance) - by being, as vulture says, well-behaved. A fully-documented example of this is in the AU:Peacekeeper course. Ah, those were the days, when five or six thousand years of patient diplomacy and peace could win you the game.

Not any more. Good behaviour is less of an option in C3C's current resource-scarce configuration, where aggressive war is nearly mandatory, so this has an impact on the UN victory. The other effect of C3C on the UN is that the Killer AI - the lucky one with the resources - (Ivory is often enough to be starting with) eats up all the others so there's hardly anyone left to vote for you. The survivors are mostly candidates - on one of the criteria - so the chances of winning by UN vote are further diminished.

	12-01-2004 08:36									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae The Pyramids are (...) the only Ancient era Wonder I would consider shaping my strategy around. The only Medieval era Wonder really worth building is Leo's.

Let me nominee a humble Colossus as a worthy alternative to Leo.

Colossus is one of the longest lasting ancient wonders. It works from whenever it is built until Flight, which is the very end of the Industrial era. Let's be very conservative (some games may not last into industrial era, for instance) and estimate that Colossus will provide its benefits for 100 game turns.

Colossus provides one extra commerce point (cp) per tile worked. By the time it's built the city that completes it probably will be size 5-6 and eventually will grow to size 12 at least. Let's figure out an average of 9 tiles worked during aforementioned 100 turns. That's a total of 900 cps accumulated during 100 turns. Write off one cp/turn for corruprion and we'll end up with 800 extra cps/100 turns.

Assume for simplicity that extra commerce from the Colossus city is diverted into treasury. [It is faster and cheaper to turn Colossus income into science beakers, but then there is an issue of relative value of gold/beakers. Since we want to compare Colossus versus Leo, it is easier to assume that Colossus is used exclusively to generate some extra cash].

Marketplace (50% extra tax) will turn these 800 cps into 1200 gold/100 turns. But marketplaces take time to research/build so let's figure out 50 turns without marketplace + 50 turns with marketplace. A total 1000gold/100 turn is a very conservative estimate of the extra income that can be gleaned from the Colossus city.

Now, Horseman/Knight upgrade costs 40g with Leo and 80g without [in Civ 1.29. I don't have Conquests so cannot make any comments]. If I build Colossus instead of Leo, I pay 40g extra per each upgrade. But I also have these 1000 extra gold, so if I have less than 25 horseman to upgrade, I will come up ahead with Colossus instead of Leo.

But... Leo costs 600 shields vs. 200 shields for Colossus. I could use these 400 extra shields to build 400/70=5-6 extra knights from scratch. So an army of 30 knights is actually cheaper to assemble with Colossus instead of Leo. And (imho) 30 knights is quite a respectable force.

Of course Leo can be used to upgrade other units as well. Say, spearmen to infantry. But if game lasts until infantry, then Colossus probably works for more than 100 turns and generates even more gold... Say, 50 turns in the industrial era at 12 tiles worked + marketplace + bank = (12*2)*50=another 1200g for infantry upgrades...

In other words, I think Colossus is very much underrated. Copernicus and Newton are strategy-dependent wonders since they are not any good for anything but generating extra science beakers. But Collossus generates commerce which can be put to good use whether you are aiming for a space race victory or for medieval conquest.

cheers,
-- ErikM