12-01-2004 09:35									#61
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quote: Originally posted by ErikM In other words, I think Colossus is very much underrated. [. . .] But Collossus generates commerce which can be put to good use whether you are aiming for a space race victory or for medieval conquest.

Great analysis!

I think Colossus is a fine wonder. In fairness to Dominae (whom I suspect will be along soon enough to reiterate his own view), his stated view was that the Pyramids was the sole ancient age wonder worthy of shaping his strategy. The Colossus is, IMHO, a fine ancient age wonder well worth the shield investment in the vast majority of circumstances; but the Pyramids is a wonder around which I would alter my game approach (as Dominae stated) -- the Colossus will not appreciably affect my approach to the game at hand. In other words, I agree with your analysis that the Colossus is great and is under-rated; but I also agree with Dominae that the Pyramids is a game-changing wonder.

Catt

	12-01-2004 09:50									#62
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Thanks for your very thoughtful (not to mention concrete) analysis, ErikM!

Unfortunately, I disagree with your conclusion. I believe there are a few factors you're not considering:

1. Much of the Colossus' income is not available when Leo starts doing its work. Let's say you build Leo's mid way through the Medieval era. Then, using your example, you save that 1000 Gold on 25 Knight upgrades right away, while up to that point the Colossus has only generated about half of its total Gold potential, ~500 Gold.

There is definitely something to be said for having the Colossus' extra income available before Leo's, since 1 Gold at turn 80 is worth more than 1 Gold at turn 160 (for instance, it lets you do faster research, which can be translated into more Gold through trades, etc.). But I'm doubtful this advantage is more imprtant than the doubled amount of Gold Leo's provides in the mid-Medieval era compared to the Colossus at the same stage.

2. Obviously to really benefit from the Colossus you need to build it as soon as possible. Unfortunately, on the higher difficulties (Monarch and above), it simply makes more economic sense to REX and/or build up a military early on than spend 200 Shields on a Wonder. Once early expansion/conquest is over, however, more expensive projects (Wonders and expensive city improvements) become viable, just around the time of Invention. Usually the Colossus gets completed not so long before Invention anyway, a fact which only solidifies point 1 above.

3. 30 Knights is decent-size force, but is not a good estimate of the numbers of units you can/should run through Leo's. First, you neglected to mention all the defensive units (which upgrade all the way up to Mechanized Infantry), as well as artillery (which also upgrade all the way). There's definitely something to be said for cheaply upgrading all your crappy Musketmen/Riflemen to Infantry.

Second, I try to get a lot more offensive mileage out of Leo's than just 30 Knights. Often I have ~20 Swordsmen to upgrade to Medieval Infantry (although you cannot do this in vanilla Civ3). And then there's those 60+ Horsemen that I build after disconnecting my Iron, uprading to Cavalry for a cost of (at least) 100*60 = 6000 Gold. The Colossus simply does not generate 3000 Gold before Military Tradition.

4. Although this does not affect you, it's something to consider that Conquests increase the upgrade cost from 2 Gold per Shield to 3. So, your 25 Knights example now costs 40*3*25 = 3000 Gold, reduced to 1500 Gold with Leo's, instead of 1000 Gold. Cavalry now cost 150 Gold to uprade from Horsemen, and doing so for 60 Horsemen saves 150*60/2 = 4500 Gold with Leo's!

In conclusion, I hold firm by my belief that Leo's is by far the better money-maker. Not only this, it comes at a time in the game that is far better for Wonder-building.


Dominae

Last edited by Dominae on 12-01-2004 at 09:59

	12-01-2004 09:51									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Catt In fairness to Dominae (whom I suspect will be along soon enough to reiterate his own view)...

Hm, is it a good or bad thing that I'm predictable?

	12-01-2004 10:07									#64
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Another point:

quote: Originally posted by ErikM But Collossus generates commerce which can be put to good use whether you are aiming for a space race victory or for medieval conquest.

This is very much a matter of playstyle. If you intend on a very peaceful game, it's true that Leo's will not do as much for you as it has the potential to do (it's a Militaristic Wonder, after all).

But, in terms of generally powerful strategies, warmongering and mass upgrades top the list, and use Leo's as a facilitator. The Gold you save on Cavalry upgrades can just as easily be translated into faster research as the Commerce generated by the Colossus.


Dominae

	12-01-2004 12:52									#65
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As an aside, it seems to me that the Colossus is more sought by the AI in C3C than it was in PTW.

At emperor and above it is much harder to get than it was in PTW.
It seemed that I could go for Colossus without a prebuild before, but not now. Maybe it is the addition of Seafaring civs or a change to the AI. Well I guess it could also be that I am dreaming.

	12-01-2004 21:02									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Unfortunately, I disagree with your conclusion. I believe there are a few factors you're not considering: (...)

We do not necessarily disagree. I did not want to depreciate Leo, I rather wanted to show that Colossus is quite good on its own merit. Leo benefits are proportional to the number of units to be upgraded so on large/huge maps it will most likely end up superior in the long run. In contrast, Colossus benefits are pretty much fixed by (extra income)x(number of turns in effect) and they are spread out over a long period of time.

On smaller maps and early military action (ie warrior-> swordsman) Colossus may be better (if only because Leo is not even available at this stage). Or for limited military action. But even on larger map Colossus can be considered as a "Poor Man's Leo" of sorts.

Overall I agree that in most circumstances Pyramids are #1 (although on, say, archipelago maps with a little room to settle even Pyramids may be worthless; I'd add workers from high food cities to low food cities instead). Great Lighthouse may or may not be useful depending on the map. But Colossus is quite solid and another thing to be said about it is that it is pretty much the only wonder whose value is practically independent of map settings, game circumstances, etc.

In vanilla Civ, I find that on Emperor Colossus is much easier to build before AI than Pyramids. Sometimes AI would chase Oracle/Pyramids and when someone completes them they may not be able to switch since the city they were trying to build them may not be eligible (not coastal). On Deity, it seems to me that Great Library is the first wonder a human player may have a shot at without leaders.

	12-01-2004 21:45									#67
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I'd say that the Colossus is most powerful on the smallest map, as it's output represents a higher proportion of total commerce in the world - attributing proportionally greater benefit to the owner.

It's already been pointed out that Leo benefits most on a larger map, and the same applies to all local vs global wonders.

	12-01-2004 22:58									#68
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I play on a Tiny map, usually with a Seafaring nation. As such, I consider the Colossus invaluable - but often don't manage to get it (on Emp). I have never ever bothered with the Pyramids - I suspect for a Huge map they would be worth it (if you were able to get there first) but not for a Tiny one (it would cost fewer total shields to actually buy Granaries in most of my core cities than to buy the Pyramids....!)

I'm a fan of the power city, and apart from Hoover Dam generally prefer single-city to global Wonders. If I can get Colossus and Mausoleum in a well-located city then aim for Copernicus/Newton's/Shakespeare's I'm a happy Civver.

	12-01-2004 23:15									#69
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Now there's a thought - I hadn't got my head round the Shake's new hospital functionality. In fact, I wondered why a KAI had got a size 18 city before Sanitation recently, and now I know. That Shake's has raised the value of the Colossus / 'Pernies / Newton combo - and is cool for OCC.

	13-01-2004 01:12									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae And then there's those 60+ Horsemen that I build after disconnecting my Iron, uprading to Cavalry for a cost of (at least) 100*60 = 6000 Gold

Disconnect Iron to allow cheap 30 shield Horseman builds again, then do a missive upgrade - Wow! How come I never thought of that...

Wait a minute: I thought Cavalry required Saltpeter and Horses. Iron and Horses is for Knights.

	13-01-2004 02:24									#71
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Apparently, (I haven't actually calculated it yet) it's cheaper to build Horsemen and Upgrade them to Cavalry than to build Knights and then upgrade them to Cav.

By cutting the Iron supply, you won't be able to build Knights--only Horsemen, then upgrade 2 steps to Cav. Thus 'cutting-out the middleman'.

At least I think that is what Dominae was trying to say.

Steven

	13-01-2004 02:41									#72
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Good to see some people who like the Colossus as much as I do.

It's a really nice little wonder. I play on standard maps, and the bang for the buck works for me.

Leo's is a better wonder, yeah, but it's in a different era and costs twice as much. It's not like you are going to have to make a choice between the two. Sun Tzu/Sistine/Leos - that's the choice you will probably have to make. Leos is definitely even more powerful in Conquests, and of course on bigger maps (just as all 1-city effect wonders are less powerful by comparison on larger maps).

-Arrian

	13-01-2004 06:13									#73
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I'll take the Colossus all day long. Even in C3C, if you can get a decent coastal city going during the AI's REX phase, you've got a great chance for it. And then, yeah, dedicating that city to cumulative economic/scientific/happiness single-city GWs is just... glorious.

	13-01-2004 09:24									#74
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Colossus is the reason (well along with Curragh) that I try hard to found a coastal city by the third one.

	13-01-2004 11:02									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus I'd say that the Colossus is most powerful on the smallest map, as it's output represents a higher proportion of total commerce in the world - attributing proportionally greater benefit to the owner. It's already been pointed out that Leo benefits most on a larger map, and the same applies to all local vs global wonders.

This is actually a really, really important consideration. The smaller the map, the fewer cities you have and the more important each one is. So any Wonder which boosts something in the city which builds it - like the Colossus, Newton's University, etc. - is that much more powerful. Building Newton's University on a Tiny map is the equivalent of building it in several cities on a Huge one.

	13-01-2004 22:10									#76
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Unless I get a really strong start or get lucky with GLs I rarely build any wonders.

So the ones I prefer are the ones which get built conveniently close at hand.

Build it yourself and it ties up a city's production for ever and costs a small mountain of shields. With the AI building all the wonders they appear nice and quickly because they cost the AI so much less.

And as a little hidden bonus, if you punch the F7 key from time to time you will often see half a dozen AI civs competing to build a single wonder. Numbers of those civs will get to write off shields when they lose the race. Which helps to erode their production advantage a bit. Whereas if you don't join the race yourself you will never have that irksome experience.

I make one exception to this. If I find myself in a crowded starting location with a neighbour or two who is going to produce strong culture then I have a go for the Collosus (plain vanilla Civ3, this is). Because without the extra culture from a wonder it can add substantially to the difficulty of getting out of the pocket if you have to work too hard to avoid culture flips.

I go for the Collosus because, for some reason, that wonder gets neglected by the AI. To attempt that I find that you must recognise the situation you are in very very quickly (so as to devote one of your first three cities to the task and you need a coastal city with a good balance between food and forest plus the prospect of two or more early luxuries.

Or to get lucky.

	26-01-2004 06:15									#77
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I like the ones that give the free military units - especially if you are going for a military one, other than that all the usual stuff, Pyramids, Leo's Workshop, Library.

Something I do is build a wonder that is rubbish but will NOT be finished before my next advance that way when the advance comes around I can switch production to the new wonder and get it very quickly.

	26-01-2004 07:40									#78
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We call them prebuilds. It is a wise move, but sometimes they are not big enough or you only can use the place and in only one city.