30-12-2003 00:41									#1
	Raging Barbarians Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I've always set barbarians to 'Raging' in my games because I figure this gives me maximum challenge. But I wonder if that is really the case.

The AI makes a big priority of wiping out barbarians. If they have to focus on military and wiping out large amount of barbs, then maybe this slows their infrastructure building? Maybe it gives them less troops to defend against other civs?

Raging barbs are rarely an issue for me because I expand rapidly and I place units in empty areas so that new barb settlements cannot grow near me. The biggest problem I have is that they churn out the sea units and I lose quite a bit of curraghs/galleys when trying to get past a stack of 5 or 6 barb sea units.

The AI doesn't make good use of barbarian hordes either. I decided to settle a small empty continent in a recent game. It was late ancient age. Upon exploring the continent with a swordsman I found a barb settlement with 31 horsemen and one warrior. I had just made two cities nearby and they were completely empty. The horseman never moved out of the settlement once my swordsman moved next to it. They could have easily overwhelmed me. Stupid AI!

	30-12-2003 06:31									#2
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With the new pacifist barbs and enslaving units, I would say raging barbs are more of an exploit than a hinderence.
I wached on game at Demi on debug and I did not s the AI losing many units to barbs, so I doubt it slows them down. They in fact get promotions and 25 gold for each camp. If they have enslave they get workers. I am begining to wonder if barbs are even worth having.

	30-12-2003 06:38									#3
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Is it an exploit playing as the mayans and using the javilineer to take on Barbs and getting tons of workers this way? I wonder if thats a cheat.

	30-12-2003 08:33									#4
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it's debatable, but i love doing it

	30-12-2003 08:57									#5
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I like the raging barbs to help 'fill in the cracks' in the ancient times.

	30-12-2003 09:29									#6
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Ok, maybe it IS time the barbs were sorted out

Were it not for the Mayans though...it probably wouldn't be a big deal (they're only there to be a pain in the butt...)

	30-12-2003 09:54									#7
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The barbarians definately, desperately need 'sorting out'. The current mix of barbarian behaviors require some 'editor control'!!

I have set to 'no advantage' and this does change the AI's fortunes in dealing with barbarians. Raging barbarians are a pain however I have noticed it is easier to swiftly bring a 'settler' close in to a hoard of say 20 or 30 barbs and found a city right there. I called them 'whore city' and 'new butt'. This attracts the barbs and they all come down from the hills and pillage taking almost nothing (1 to 7 gold) depending on how much I left in treasury. Often though I only get dinged once though 20 pile on through and disappear. Now this is much easier than raising an large army and beating them out of the hills.

And all especially since I set the barbarians with 'beserkers' with movement of 2 and Cossacks for the raging barbs.

Now when the barbs are set to restless it is more reasonable.

First off eliminate all advantage in the setting for human and AI's. I have down this. However, the rub is the barbs do not advance in rank after battle (this stinks) and they don't 'raise' cities?

This makes the thing a complete work around.

	30-12-2003 09:58									#8
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

If you use your standard army (the one you should be making to batter the AI with ) turn that on the barbs instead. Oh, and Sengoku on low difficulty levels gives you the opportunity to PERSONALLY dish it to the barbs. Take care though...

	31-12-2003 00:15									#9
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I miss the old days of Barbs taking cities and building units. I was once wiped out by a barbarian invasion.

	31-12-2003 01:52									#10
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I do to!!

However, within what appears to be current coded framework I would like to see these changes...

1) Barbarians raise cities! It can be a stepped process like two pop point per hit, plus one improvement and take gold until the city is reduced to rubble. Make it hurt three different ways, otherwise what real threat are barbarians?

2) Have barbarians gain in battle experience so that they can become a roving 'elite' terror!

3) Same with ships, excepting that they should also repair at sea or close up next to a camp on a coast tile, since porting them does not appear viable.

4) The 'raging' setting needs an 'editor' control. To wit; setting of the frequency of raging horses (advanced barbs) and the 'number' of same. Also whether it be every 2nd or 3rd camp, certainly not always all of them everywhere at once. And not 20-40 only, this number needs be 'setable'.

BARBARIANS are critical for the culture of game play.
Let this be a priority.

Sincerely,
Antrine

	31-12-2003 08:21									#11
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NOOOOO!
Keep the scum OUT!
If you MUST have something, then have MORE barbs so you get pilfered more often

Actually...I believe barbs already kill population and smash production when they get the chance. They just don't 'finish' cities off...
Having the barbs pop up EVEN MORE...it might become more visible