30-12-2003 02:54									#1
	Poll: The Official Re-Poll! Support Apolyton

Man, 31 Civ's to choose from!

From Civ 3:

Americans
Aztecs
Babylonians
Chinese
Egyptians
English
French
Germans
Greeks
Indians
Iroquois
Japanese
Persians
Romans
Russians
Zulus



From PTW:

Arabs
Carthaginians
Celts
Koreans
Mongols
Spanish
Ottomans
Vikings


From C3C:

Hittites
Sumerians
Incas
Mayans
Byzantines
Dutch
Portuguese



The poll feature at Apoltyon can only handle 24 options. I'm picking 7 Civ's to leave out of the poll. If you want to pick one that I leave out, then you must manually(write it in) vote for it. You can choose 3 Civ's. If you manually choose a Civ, then you can only choose two other in the tabulated poll.

I'm leaving out:
Americans
Germans
Japanese
Incas
Mongols
Byzantines
Spanish

Who wants to edit this and include Civ traits and UU's?

	30-12-2003 03:18									#2
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Nice name for this thread.

Regarding civ choice in respect to the 1st game, we need a civ that has: 1) strong early game traits, possibly including militaristic and 2) a strong early game UU to go with the traits.

We will need to make a decision whether we want to go defensive to just survive or offensive to actively pursue the destruction of other civs.

My #1 choice: Rome. Legions are very powerful early units for both offense and defense and can be upgraded from warriors. The main caveat is the fact that we will need to find a supply of iron quickly, but we can build cheap barracks and start pumping warriors for later upgrade, or even Legions themselves. Legions are still one of the all-around great units in the ancient age.

My #2 choice: Greece. The traits don't necessarily give rapid growth, but the main selling point of the Greeks are their very early defensive UU that does not require a strategic resource and is buildable from the beginning. The Greeks are a great holding pattern civ if our desire is to just survive until the second game.

My #3 choice: Iroquois. This civ necessitates an offensive strategy and again requires a strategic resource to build it's UU, but Mounted Warriors are very powerful offensive units and the trait combination is top notch for early growth.

	30-12-2003 03:18									#3
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voted dutch and portuguese, WRITE IN BYZANTINES.

WRITE INS
Byzantines (1)

	30-12-2003 03:21									#4
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Oh, a fourth civ I'd also entertain are the Celts. They have agriculture for early expansion and another top notch UU, though it is still one of the most expensive ancient age UU's.

Their main drawback is that I don't see us needing to build many temples or change governments too many times for religious to be a huge help.

Last edited by Rhothaerill on 30-12-2003 at 07:05

	30-12-2003 03:30									#5
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Voted Rome, Iroquois, and Persia. Voted the first two for reasons stated by Rhothaerill.

Persia, I picked for it's Immortals, and Industrious trait. Those Immortals are still kick-ass UUs. Not as good as some, granted, but still strong. I also like Persia's Industrious trait. Even weakened though it is, we can't underestimate the value of a speedy worker.

	30-12-2003 03:50									#6
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Greeks (cheap, easy to build UU that can be sent to pillage and get our GA started in order to wipe out another Civ close to us.)
Romans (Very powerfull UU!)
Celts (UU is basically a Knight with slightly reduced attack and defense. If you get this early enough, you can overrun your opponent before they get a chance to defend properly.)

	30-12-2003 05:17									#7
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1.Mayas

AND TWO WRITE INs:

2. Americans
3. Incas

The settings we've voted for make Industrious, Agr, and Expansionist very valuable, particlarly the two with Industrious.

All 3 start with Pottery and Masonry. Think Granery's adviable from turn 1 with all three and fast wood chopers with Maya or America.

With either Maya or the Incas, we have slightly higher food production with next to a river under despotism and more food from desert should we start near one.

Also the Mayan UU allows Enslavement into workers. Under 1.0 this works against barbs. We can allow camps to develop on purpose just for free workers, particlarly near the end of the ancient era.

The Incan UU is very effective in scoutting thru hills and mountains.

Yeah, the American UU is too late for a good GA and the Incan & Mayan UUs are too early for a good GA, but there's good wonder combos for all three.

	30-12-2003 07:54									#8
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Rome, Persia and...
Zulu (In no particular order). A two move spear unit would go great with a stack of Horsemen.....

	30-12-2003 13:53									#9
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Mayans: They are Industrial + Agricultural so can have awesome growth. Plus their UU is avail early on and not a bad unit.

Romans: UU, Legions are pretty cool.

Dutch: Who doesn't like the Dutch? lol. Starting off next to the ocean lets us explore the seas sooner, and also get communications with other civs sooner, which is a good thing. plus their UU is a good defensive one to have.

	06-01-2004 09:36									#10
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This is the "official" poll. Please place your votes.

	06-01-2004 10:37									#11
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BF.

This poll is closed for me.....and I am sure I have not voted yet.

Did this poll have a 72hour limit set on it ?? or something similar ?

If I did vote, it was an accident.

	06-01-2004 11:02									#12
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We are a trusting lot. Just do a "write in." Other have had to do that anyways because we could not place all 31 Civs in the poll.

	06-01-2004 19:41									#13
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Iroquois
Dutch
Mayan

	06-01-2004 21:09									#14
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Sorry - I missed the poll. My choices:

1. Greeks
2. Romans
3. Persians

(hey - these look like MP choices. )

Can you add them in con or BF. Thanks.

	07-01-2004 03:20									#15
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This will most likely be a free-for-all military elimination game.
Our success in the ISDG & our size will make us an early target for some of the smaller sites.
C3C has a fickle limited resource allocation.

We therefore need a strong/powerful early civ, with a good UU, that does not depend on strategic resources.

(1) Maya
(2) Greek
(3) Zulu

	07-01-2004 05:19									#16
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Pole closed. Oh well. whatever. I usually just pick random anyways.

	07-01-2004 05:55									#17
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GK, you can still write in your votes and we will count it I think tonight will be the last night though.

	07-01-2004 16:14									#18
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Thank GOD!

Americans
Romans
Mayans

	08-01-2004 09:48									#19
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Mayans
Greeks
Dutch

	08-01-2004 10:43									#20
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We have a slight problem with the results. Here they are:
Greeks-8
Iroquois-10
Persians-6
Romans-10
Mayans-9
Dutch-7

It's obvious that the Iroquois, Romans and Mayans are the civs we want but in what order? Rome and the Iroquois are both tied at 10.

	08-01-2004 10:49									#21
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Flip a coin? That seems like the fairest option...

	08-01-2004 10:58									#22
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Flipped a coin. Rome won. So, here are our civ choices in order:
1)Rome
2)Iroquois
3)Maya

	08-01-2004 11:00									#23
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Wait a coton pickin minute, this was to be a weighted poll I thought. So the votes need to be tallied according to preferences.

	08-01-2004 11:20									#24
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Cool, we still voting...?

Celts
Iroquois
Zulu

	08-01-2004 11:45									#25
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I see no reason we can't keep the poll open until the minute we HAVE to decide.

	08-01-2004 13:32									#26
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If this poll is susposed to be weighted, then it was set up wrong. The people who voted did not get to place "weights" on their votes. Another poll or just keep debating?

PAnzer made a good comment about needing a good Ancient Age UU that does not need a resource. What about the Aztec? Them 10 shield little two move buggers can be VERY powerful when used en mass. Or the Enkidu Warrior. With a 10 shield Spear unit we would be well defended...

	08-01-2004 22:35									#27
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quote: Originally posted by donegeal If this poll is susposed to be weighted, then it was set up wrong. The people who voted did not get to place "weights" on their votes. Another poll or just keep debating?

There's just too many choices for a proper poll to be set up. Maybe we can get everyone to post there three choices (1,2,3) and then use that as a way to hold a weighted poll?

	08-01-2004 22:54									#28
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quote: Originally posted by donegeal What about the Aztec? Them 10 shield little two move buggers can be VERY powerful when used en mass.

point of clarification, those guys are 15 shields each in C3C

	08-01-2004 23:05									#29
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We better quit screwing around on this we could put up our CIV choices right now at the UN and although no one has set a time limit it is going to happen soon.

What about this poll?

And we (All the teams) have voted for MINIMAL modifications at the UN, so do expect any even distribution of resources.

Any early UU that needs iron or possibly even horses will either be VERY usefull (unlikely) or useless (likely)due to lack of resources. But then this last paragraph is just my opinion.

Last edited by conmcb25 on 08-01-2004 at 23:22

	09-01-2004 15:00									#30
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Togas started a thread about early game strat that I think is very relevant here.

He looked at the teams involved and came to the (logical) conclusion that game one is going to be a war filled blood fest. Alot of the new teams involved (like the MP ladder and such) are going to be filled with people who are experts of the MP field. They are going to come and they are going to come early. Game one is going to be about survival. 5 teams. The top 3 move on. This means that all we have to do is out last 2 teams. That is not going to take very long. With this in mind, I think that we really need to go defensive in game one.

If we are going defensive, I think four Civs stand out as clear front runners:
Rome
Zulu
Summaria/Hittites
Greece

Rome:
For this type of game, the best UU possible. The Roman Legion is a 3 attack, 3 defence, 1 move Unit that cost 30 shields and comes with Iron Working. It upgrades from a Warrior for 60 gold. The its attack value is the best of the age, save for the Persian Immortal. Its defensive value IS the best of the Age and only gets topped by the Dutch Swiss Merc with Feudalism (I do not think this game is going to even GET to the Mideval Age). Its only drawback is its dependence on Iron. With resource scarity the way it is in C3C, we could be in a struggle to aquire Iron. With Iron, our civ is toast. However, if the map is going to be modded to be "more" resource friendly, I think this drawback is almost illiminated.
Romes Traits are Military and er... ah... something else. I don't remember. But for this quick game, I think that the military trait is going to be key. Its going to bet bloody and there is going to be plenty of fighting. Military provides two things: 20 shield barracks , and quicker promotions. Quicker promotions means more elities, more elities mean better chance of a MGL, MGL means ANCIENT AGE LEGION ARMY (for those that don't know, under the new C3C version, a legion army with three units in it would have a A/D/M of 4.5/4.5/2). Name me a unit that could beat a Legion army if it was fortified in a walled hill city?

Zulu
The Impi is a 20 shield 2 move spear. Fast units do not retreat from them. They do not require a resource and you get them with Bronze Working. With the two move it will be easy to move them from one area of our empire to where they are needed. On roads, this is 6 tiles. For this game, which if we do play defensively, we would be able to move our entire defensive force from on side of our civ to another in 2 moves. VERY USEFUL.
The Zulu also have the Military trait. Like I said in the Rome section, 20 shield barracks are cheap and easy to build. I believe that the Zulu are also Expansionist. You get two things with this trait. The free scout (and the ability to build scouts) and friendlier goody huts. This gives and increased chance of a settler or city poped from a hut. It also increases the likelyhood of tech from a hut. With three scouts running around, we could almost discard Sci and get most of the huts.

Summaria/Hittites
I don't know which one it is, but one of them builds the Enkidu Warrior. A 10 shield spear. So damn cheap. How the hell do you beat a civ that can build these bastards so damn quickly?
They have the Agri trait. If we get placed on a river, I do not think I even need to comment on its usefulness.

Greece
The Hopilite is a 3 defense spear. Comes with Bronze and does not require a resource. It is an ancient age Pike. If we take this civ, yes I think we would be a shoe-in for game two. I do have one problem with this however. I am not sure how they did it, but CDG managed to kill an incredible amount of Apolyton Numedian Mercs with horses in the ISDG. Somewhere, there is a chink in the 3 defense armor. I think we need to find it.
The only trait that I know the Greece has ATM is Sci. Now as I think this is going to be a bloody defensive battle that is not going to even make it to the Mideval Age, this trait is completely worthless.