31-12-2003 04:40									#1
	###Oh F** the secret's out### Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I found out today that the Hive has a secret forum, where everything is actually decided. The only members are Kody, Voltaire, HongHu and Micha. Noone else's opinion matters squat, so we may as well all leave the Hive. I have this confirmed from Kody and Voltaire, and have told them either they close it, or I make it public. This thread is copied in both the private and public forums. If the private forum is not either closed or opened to ALL members, then I sall be taking drastic action.

-Jam

	31-12-2003 05:05									#2
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well, it is an elitist police state faction...
too bad not all factions can enjoy a sailor's freedom.

	31-12-2003 06:20									#3
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Its pretty pissy that this has been going on, all polls overridden, all policies decided for months. Basically everything anyone else posted in the Hive who isn't in the elite quartet, has had no influence on the game. And the worst is... we didn't even know the secret forum existed untill today.

Oh well. The chairman has 48 hours to make everyone a member of the secret forum, or something unpleasant will happen. I didn't join a demogame to be kept in the dark by my own team.

-Jam

	31-12-2003 07:57									#4
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Note - membership of the Hive is now 26. Earlier it was 28. Two people have left upon reading this news. Deny it, go on.

-Jam

	31-12-2003 08:06									#5
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Life in the Hive is always interesting.

btw this wouldn't be one of those new fangled 'whinge' threads.

	31-12-2003 08:14									#6
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Jamski

quote: I didn't join a demogame to be kept in the dark by my own team

Now that is a fair point. Striking the balance between RP and democracy in the Hive is always going to be a rollercoaster.

Then again for a while there, was there not a series of secret societies of one person ruling the faction.

	31-12-2003 08:28									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Hercules btw this wouldn't be one of those new fangled 'whinge' threads.

Yes, it would be.

	31-12-2003 14:16									#8
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Jamski has a point. Having DG-related forum unavailable for some specific team members is well, against what I call fair. Then again it is the Hive, so openess and democracy could be considered unhiverian in some sence.
Looks like you are in a wrong faction, dont waste your talents dude

	31-12-2003 14:42									#9
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I agree with laurentius. Even though theoretically the Hive leadership might not be doing anything wrong, doesn't their action go against the very spirit of a democracy game, which is to allow people to have as much fun as possible?

	31-12-2003 14:45									#10
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Not to do anything...ungodly or anything, however just some general advice:

If the people of the demogame pass a rule....I get to enforce it. Isnt that nice?

Random advice from your diety.

	31-12-2003 17:23									#11
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I vote that in a demo game all desicions should be open to all the members of that faction, either to participate, or to observe. I'm still waiting for a response from Voltaire about this. It would be a shame to have to kill the Hive off. People are talking about quitting.

-Jam

	31-12-2003 17:28									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski I vote that in a demo game all desicions should be open to all the members of that faction, either to participate, or to observe. I'm still waiting for a response from Voltaire about this. It would be a shame to have to kill the Hive off. People are talking about quitting. -Jam

Create the poll first

Also, can I change the title to something better? Like

"F*** (Notice: 3 *s and one letter. Implying a four letter word.) you Voltaire!" or even a boring

"---(No more ###)Oh F*** the secret's out---"?

	31-12-2003 19:12									#13
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The second letter is an E and the third is a G. #

This is not a matter to be polled, Tass, its just plain wrong, and we don't need to discuss it. No faction should withhold desicion making from its members - and to do this in secret is double wrong.

-Jam

	31-12-2003 20:47									#14
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Jamski

quote: This is not a matter to be polled, Tass, its just plain wrong, and we don't need to discuss it. No faction should withhold desicion making from its members - and to do this in secret is double wrong.

Yeah I admit I would be pretty pissed off.

	01-01-2004 03:57									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski This is not a matter to be polled, Tass, its just plain wrong, and we don't need to discuss it. No faction should withhold desicion making from its members - and to do this in secret is double wrong. -Jam

It is not against the rules and if you wanted it to be as such, then you should post a poll instead of getting angry at me.

	01-01-2004 04:17									#16
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Well go ahead post a global lpoll

	01-01-2004 04:55									#17
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Chairman Voltaire of the Human Hive has given me this message:

quote: I refuse to post in the thread in the public forum because there is an identical one within the Hive forums. However, I do wish to say this: The matter in which Jamski has brought up is more complex than he has described but more than that, it is an internal Hiverian matter. As Tassadar has said (and Googlie has not refuted this), there is no rule against this. Therefore I would appreciate it if other factions would let us tend to our internal matters without external influence. Thank you, Chairman Voltaire Human Hive

	01-01-2004 07:19									#18
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Yay soap opera!

	01-01-2004 08:45									#19
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Happy New Year.

However I think the issue has moved beyond simply an internal faction matter.

It is an very interesting matter to spam discuss.

	01-01-2004 09:15									#20
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wait a minute...So this is real? Never mind specific rules, isn't it kind of misleading for people to join a "Democacy" Game and then find out their input doesn't matter? What are the extenuating "complexities"?

	01-01-2004 09:53									#21
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Don't ask me. Ask Voltaire.

	01-01-2004 10:48									#22
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The Hive is the most active RP faction. They've let you have fun by letting you RP that much. Your exclusion from faction decisions was in keeping with the spirit of the Hive. In short....too bad for you. You should've picked a faction that was more suited to your personality, rather than just the one that seemed "cool".

	01-01-2004 11:04									#23
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Like the PUT?

quote: To be posted by Archaic Yes.

	01-01-2004 11:08									#24
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I would keep the issue of opening up this Secret Forum purely within the Hive. If a majority of Hive members say to open it up then do so. Its very much an internal Hive matter in my opinion. It was foolish for such a thing to be keept a complete secret but fundamentaly its existence is not a violation of the spirit of the game, the "pleab" members who dont have acess still have a level of influence over the goverment (like now that their revolting). I also understand to a degree why they set such a thing up, Kody has frequently mentioned to me and other Cycon members how most of the Hives members just spam and fail to contribute anything usefull, I would imagine this was due to toomany people joining the Hive purely for RolePlaying and having fun. I know that desision making over at the Cycon would become a LOT harder if we had the kind of spam the Hive reportedly dose.

	01-01-2004 11:12									#25
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quote: I know that desision making over at the Cycon would become a LOT harder if we had the kind of spam the Hive reportedly dose.

Luckily CyCon has 0 spam! (I don't count)

	01-01-2004 13:11									#26
	Re: ###Oh F** the secret's out### Put an end to popups!

quote: The only members are Kody, Voltaire, HongHu and Micha.

WRONG. I'm a member (just haven't posted yet)

Oh COME ON Jamski. Anyone with the desire and ability to play worth a damn for The Hive is in that forum.
Maybe if you spent less time skimming posts and overthrowing the government and more time thinking about the game, you might actually have a shot at being in the 31337_PH0R4M

quote: Noone else's opinion matters squat, so we may as well all leave the Hive.

FYI anyone who wants their opinion to matter will stay in the hive. What are you? Blackmailing? Or are you just a whining quitter?
Plus anyone whose opinion -is- worth a damn (and wants their opinion to be worth a damn) is going to that 31337 forum.

YOUR opinion isn't worth a damn because you can't be bothered to be a good player, as it was -YOU- that said playing SMAX with a calculator was not your idea of fun.
Well what for some of us, for whom that idea -is- fun?
Those that like to achieve, and conquer, as opposed to half-heartedly pushing formers onto moist squares and farming them?

What for those of us that want a home of tactics, away from the ?
The Hive was full of so we set up a forum where we could actually discuss things.
It's quite alright to divide the from the in my opinion, being an Elitist that I am.
So go the 31337 Forum.

IMO leave hive private forum for the and the 31337 forum for the strategy. Each to their own - the message is clear.
I can't understand why people would be angry at not being upperclass? Do you expect your life and value handed to you on a silver platter?

The current system works fine as it is. Thank you for arousing dissent amongst the current Hive populous.

	01-01-2004 14:58									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Like the PUT?

I don't think the PUT would suit their personalities actually.

	01-01-2004 15:39									#28
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quote: Your exclusion from faction decisions was in keeping with the spirit of the Hive.

I sick and tired of hearing this. Nobody is getting excluded!

All major decisions are made with public discussion. All medium decisions they can argue and change if they can convince the majority. All information on the faction's stance and decisions have been put in the hive general forum. Some of the brain storming occurs in the hidden forum, the dumb ideas that come up are discarded almost immediately, never make it out. There's no point telling people dumb ideas they'll roll their eyes at. The other ideas are presented to the rest of the faction.

And what are the decisions they're actually missing?

quote: Vanderburg needs more food next turn and the crawler was being moved this turn to let vanderburg crawl the nut next turn. There's a Octavian Crawler nearby and I should have moved it onto the nut bonus and crawled it with that crawler. Or I next turn I could have moved the HongHu KongHu to a forest and next turn used one of the vanderburg nearby crawlers to get to the nut.

Whenever anyone expresses an interest in that kind of game related talk I talk to them PERSONALLY, if they're newbies I give a little explanation on the issues they're interested in. If it appears they aren't complete newbies and want to contribute to the hive they get into the hidden work forum.

Also co-ordination between the hive members that were interested in spending significant amounts of time running the game.

quote: If we can't achieve this level of coordination some tasks may be more difficult than it could be. Say I talk to *** or *** and have to worry what have you talked to them and how not to be inconsistant. Or I talk to *** or *** and have to worry not to say something that is not current. That's going to be harder for me you realize that?

Again I'm fairly certain that we've recuited everyone interested in large amounts of commitment into the hidden forum.

I doubt the others are interested in hearing long discussions on coordination. Also these kinds of messages more personal messages between two people that would happen over email or MSN if the hidden forum wasn't around.

Finally one of the hive's members who only has access to the general forum, commented.

quote: ......on a side note, every question I've asked has been answered very thoroughly and thoughtfully. Thanks.

A comment after we explained what actually happens in the hidden forum.

quote: I have to agree the new forum sounds drearily dull for people to spam. Reading it won't be too much fun either. I'm not too fussed in missing out. I don't have the time to help out much.

I feel I work very hard to help maintain a kind of democracy in the hive. I admit it's not a perfect democracy, but for god sake I couldn't stand hearing wild accusations that we're locking everyone except an elite group out.

	01-01-2004 19:24									#29
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quote: Random advice from your diety.

Diety? So now we have to lose weight?

	01-01-2004 19:48									#30
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Enigma

quote: pushing formers onto moist squares and farming them?

So that's what happened to those single young females we sent over.