31-12-2003 05:16									#1
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~The following is a public service announcement by the Central Continuing Committee~

Earlier today the Cybernetic Consciousness allegedly issued an ultimatum to the Human Hive. The ultimatum read as follows: unless the Hive joins the war on PEACE on the site of the CyCon then the CyCon will consider the Hive as an enemy and will have to declare vendetta. No confirmation has been received in regards to the truth of this ultimatum, the government has attempted to contact the CyCon on several occasions, but the answers received (when they were finally received) were ambiguous and did not tell us anything, merely that the CyCon representative would have to report back to his government on this issue.

The question before the people of the Hive is as follows: how should the Hive respond to this ultimatum? Express your opinions before the whole People of the Human Hive so that they may be heard and taken into account in the governments decision making. Present a clear case for the position and action you advocate.

The government will keep you informed as we receive more information about this ultimatum, stay tuned.

-Central Containing Committee

	31-12-2003 05:30									#2
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Firstly, some info, so as not to make it all secret.

• An unnamed senior CyCon official sent this info in a PM to me.
  
• We later got the turn, and we are at Vendetta with the CyCon.
  
• They are offering a pact.
  
• The CyCon know somehow of our pact with their enemies, the Pirates. This seems to be thier main problem with us. Either we have a leak, or they have infilteration.
  
• If we do not accept the pact with the CyCon, then we ill continue in a state of Vendetta.
  
• PMs with a different CyCon member revealed some confusion o the issue and a passing of blame.
  
• The CyCon have asked for more time to discuss.
  
• This suggests either the CyCon are divided on the issue, the annoucment was fake, the announcement was unauthorised, or they have changed thier minds.
  

	31-12-2003 05:45									#3
	Won't we Consult with our Allies? Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Before we decide on the ultimatum won't we consult with other factions?

Would it be helpful if we spoke with our Allies and other factions?

If we are in a perma-pact with the Drones then we should definitely discuss and coordinate our stance on the Pirate/CyCon war with the Drones.

We should also see how the Uni stands and see what it will offer for us to act one way or another.

We can maximize our gains and minimize our risks by coordinating with the others.



Mead


P.S.

We need to consolidate the discussion on this in just a couple of threads. The switching back and forth amongst all these active threads is confusing.

	31-12-2003 05:49									#4
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quote: We need to consolidate the discussion on this in just a couple of threads. The switching back and forth amongst all these active threads is confusing.

I just told Kody that

The trouble is that we need to stand on our own feet sometimes. I think the Hive alone should make the choice : CyCon or Pirates.

-Jam

	31-12-2003 05:51									#5
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quote: We should also see how the Uni stands and see what it will offer for us to act one way or another.

We know that the Uni has a pact with the Pirates. What kind of pact this is we don't know. My secret sources also indicate that this war will expand to include CyCon vs Uni. We also have probing plans vs the Uni, but as yet no millitary ones.

What this all means?

-Jam

	31-12-2003 05:59									#6
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From Kody (bring stuff together...)

quote: Q: What are the Pirates offering if we side with them? A: nothing yet Q: Are the Cycon offering us anything if we join them? (other than becoming our enemy if we do not join them) A: A pact of friendship Q: What are the Drones going to do to us whatever we do? A: Drones will do nothing in relations to the peace and cycon yet. Q: My situation awareness is not to good in this game, but the back of my neck is tingling. How prepared are we to take what we want from the Drones if they do not honor their commitments and give them to us. A: Depends on what they hold back on. If they hold back on armor alarm bells will be ringing. If it's something else not as critical then we'll give them another chance. So far the drones have helped out where ever they can, and have always gone through every plan they've agreed to. Q: If we do side with the Pirates they should give us a few good bases that they can protect until we are able to, build in place and deploy to them, decent military units that we can use to help defend those bases and the rest of their empire. By decent, I mean after we obtain Syn Fossil Fuels from the Drones, by trade as promised, or by Probe if they cheat us. A: Hasn't been decided yet. Q: This may mean that the Pirates will have to trust us, but I do not think they have much of a choice. A: They may decide not to. Q: Now, I do not mind siding with the Pirates. In fact I had not much considered it until the CyCon gave us that ultimatum. Friends don't do that to friends. A: agreed, the issue is getting cleared up by voltiare and Jamski right now.

-Jam

	31-12-2003 06:11									#7
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Comrade Chairman, my thoughts:

We, the People of the Human Hive, are our own separate faction with our own agenda on Planet. If the CyCon faction think they can bully us into taking a side in their vendetta, then I believe they are sorely mistaken. The principle fact is that if we show weakness now, then other factions may very well expect us to roll over the next time. To support my stance on this is the simple fact that while we have much to gain from the CyCon, we are not perma-pacted with them like the Drones are with us.

[sorry, gotta move work stations....I'll finish my thought later]

	31-12-2003 06:16									#8
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quote: The principle fact is that if we show weakness now, then other factions may very well expect us to roll over the next time.

How about if we show strength, and demand a payment for our friendship? What would be our price to abandon the Pirates and embrace the CyCon? How will this make us look to the other factions (Drones and Uni) Will we demand the CyCon join our war vs Roze? Or tech? Even a BASE?

-Jam

	31-12-2003 06:33									#9
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quote: We later got the turn, and we are at Vendetta with the CyCon.

Because the cycon made a sneak attack, we are at vendetta.

quote: They are offering a pact.

Nope that was the pact we are offering and they have accepted I believe.

quote: The CyCon know somehow of our pact with their enemies, the Pirates. This seems to be thier main problem with us. Either we have a leak, or they have infilteration.

That's because we told them, about 1 month ago.

	31-12-2003 06:35									#10
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quote: Nope that was the pact we are offering and they have accepted I believe.

They are accepting our offer AND declaring Vendetta? Does it work that way?

quote: That's because we told them, about 1 month ago.

Ah, that would explain it better than my paranoia - but it has also made the CyCon paranoid it seems...

-Jam

	31-12-2003 06:37									#11
	Let's get over the Shock and Orientate Ourselves and Decide on Action Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

OK,

I'm treating this thread as the main one to deal with the Ultimatum.

I have the following proposals:

1. Figure out just what the CyCon, the Pirates, the Uni, and the Drones can offer us.

2. Figure out what we can offer in return.

3. Figure out what we want and are willing to give.

4. Consider what we think the other factions will be willing to give up.

Hong Hu appears to have a real good feel for the above with Hong He?s Covert Action reports. Hong Hu can you do that?

5. Contact the Drones and see what they want to do. Who's our ambassador to the Drones? Hong Hu? Can you do that?

6. Contact the Uni and see what they are willing to give us for supporting the Pirates (or see what they will offer us for supporting CyCon, or staying neutral). Octavian can you are still our ambassador to Uni? Can you do that?

7. Contact the Pirates and see what they offer. Voltaire, you?re the ambassador? Can you do that?

8. Contact the CyCon, explain to them that they should be offering not only a stick (the threatened Vendetta), but also a carrot (some nice techs and EC's + whatever else we want to ask for) if they want us to get involved in an expensive war that will make them stronger. Hong Hu you are that ambassador? Can you do that?

9. Report back in this thread as to the results of the above and we should debate how we proceed.

10. Make a decision and stick with it.


Mead


P.S.


I understand that time is of the essence. The decision we make may not be perfect, and we will probably make the decision on incomplete facts but, it is better to act than just letting events go on without us being decisive. We should take the initiative to control the outcome.

	31-12-2003 06:47									#12
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quote: 1. Figure out just what the CyCon, the Pirates, the Uni, and the Drones can offer us.

This is a mixture of tech, commerce, millitary aid, hard cash, units or bases. Not such an easy one. It depends on what we want, and what we give.

quote: 2. Figure out what we can offer in return.

Basically, we would offer the CyCon or Pirates our millitary aid, or at least a pact and use of our bases.

quote: 3. Figure out what we want and are willing to give.

We want tech. We want bases. We really like units and commerce too. We don't have much to give except promises.

quote: 4. Consider what we think the other factions will be willing to give up. HongHu appears to have a real good feel for the above with HongHu's Covert Action reports. HongHu can you do that?

Can you HongHu?

quote: 5. Contact the Drones and see what they want to do. Who's our ambassador to the Drones? Hong Hu? Can you do that?

?

quote: 6. Contact the Uni and see what they are willing to give us for supporting the Pirates (or see what they will offer us for supporting CyCon, or staying neutral). Octavian can you are still our ambassador to Uni? Can you do that?

Uni are pacted with Pirates - they're unlikely to give much for us to support CyCon...

quote: 7. Contact the Pirates and see what they offer. Voltaire, you're the ambassador? Can you do that?

?

quote: 8. Contact the CyCon, explain to them that they should be offering not only a stick (the threatened Vendetta), but also a carrot (some nice techs and EC's + whatever else we want to ask for) if they want us to get involved in an expensive war that will make them stronger. Hong Hu you are that ambassador? Can you do that?

I'm in touch with the CyCon all the time - of course its not official, but I hear a lot of stuff I'm NOT MEANT TO PASS ON. They will basically give techs, and they feel that they are very millitary superior to the Hive, and in fact all other factions.

quote: 9. Report back in this thread as to the results of the above and we should debate how we proceed.

Please.

quote: 10. Make a decision and stick with it.

PLEASE!

-Jam

	31-12-2003 07:27									#13
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Hmmm,

Well, to continue with what I was saying. We are not officially perma-pacted with the CyCon, so for them to make demands for us to act seems rather brash. However, we should weigh our options and see. Can we deal the worst thing that can happen if we do, or do not, decide to act? That is my main concern.

It's all about Cost-Benefit analysis. If it's going to cost us more to get involved than to NOT get involved, I would not want us to go ahead. However, I'm glad I'm not in the position to make the final decision.

	31-12-2003 07:47									#14
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Told ya, the 'balancing act' wouldn't last long.

From a neutral standpoint, I'd like to see if CyCon is willing to accept covert help in the war, rather than an all out vendetta, against PEACE. Explain to them that we're willing to help in their war effort, but don't want to get involved in an offensive at this point in time.

Otherwise, simply side with CyCon. I look back on our part interaction: I've always liked them more, because their general openness toward us.

	31-12-2003 07:47									#15
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Well, it all depends on how serious the CyCOn declaration of war is. I guess only time will tell.

-Jam

	31-12-2003 08:29									#16
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If CyCon did indeed threaten the Hive....it is most interesting

Last edited by Comrade Tassadar on 17-06-2004 at 01:34

	31-12-2003 17:28									#17
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They say the Hive has no chance against the "most advanced millitary on Chiron" or something (too lazy to look up the exact quote)

-Jam

	31-12-2003 17:29									#18
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Last edited by Comrade Tassadar on 17-06-2004 at 01:33

	31-12-2003 20:07									#19
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quote: How the hell could the Hive succesfully attack us? We have the most advanced army of all human factions on Chiron. Also, normally PEACE should no longer exist in 15 years.

There you are, word for word as he said it

-Jam

	31-12-2003 23:23									#20
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That IS priceless!


One high-tech unit does not an army make. (little sarcasm there).

I agree with Comrade Octavian in that we should somehow broker a deal with them, supplying materiel and low cost units to give our support of the war. However, I'm really suspicious about this and would rather have us wait until aggressive action takes place on either side. As I said previously, a faction can declare Vendetta but not do anything. This could very well be a trap to bog down our units and our economy while something bigger happens.

Nevertheless, while the Drones ARE our pactmates, they ARE human and if they decide to change the deal of the pact...we might find ourselves staring down the barrel of a Drone gun.

	01-01-2004 06:04									#21
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Voltaire Posted in ***CyCon-Pirate War Intervention***


BEGIN QUOTE

Word from CyCon on the issue:
quote:The CyCon has said nothing of the sort. We have specifically said we do not expect you to join in the war against PEACE. I must ask who the source was?- Drogue


I'm inclined to believe them given the fact that I do not consider the CyCon stupid enough to try and pull off a stunt like that. The only question which remains now is who was the saboteur?

I think someone has a lot of explaining to do.

END QUOTE


It now looks like CyCon says it does not want to drag us into this war after all.

The proposals I posted here earlier still remain valid. Jamski has already posted some good input but we need to further discuss the below:

1. Figure out just what the CyCon, the Pirates, the Uni, and the Drones can offer us.

2. Figure out what we can offer in return.

3. Figure out what we want and are willing to give.

4. Consider what we think the other factions will be willing to give up.

Hong Hu appears to have a real good feel for the above with Hong Hu?s Covert Action reports. Hong Hu can you do that?

5. Contact the Drones and see what they want to do. Who's our ambassador to the Drones? Hong Hu? Can you do that?

6. Contact the Uni and see what they are willing to give us for supporting the Pirates (or see what they will offer us for supporting CyCon, or staying neutral). Octavian can you are still our ambassador to Uni? Can you do that?

7. Contact the Pirates and see what they offer. Voltaire, you?re the ambassador? Can you do that?

8. Contact the CyCon, explain to them that they should be offering not only a stick (the threatened Vendetta), but also a carrot (some nice techs and EC's + whatever else we want to ask for) if they want us to get involved in an expensive war that will make them stronger. Hong Hu you are that ambassador? Can you do that?

9. Report back in this thread as to the results of the above and we should debate how we proceed.

10. Make a decision and stick with it.



Whatever the results of the above, as Voltaire noted above, someone (I believe it is the CyCon's) have a lot of explaining to do. Their threatened Vendetta (authorized or not) have caused us a great deal of grief and expended effort. Their apology should be accompanied by some sort of nice gift for us to forgive them.

I would expect them to offer some sort of gift in any event, as the price for not siding with the Pirates (and countering the Pirates and Uni offers). The CyCon's recent actions should cause them to consider offering us a nicer gift.



Mead

	01-01-2004 07:13									#22
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I'm loving all these intrigue even though I am soo out of the loop. I wonder if this is a reflection of any real-life situation?

	01-01-2004 17:16									#23
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I don't know, but I want to get to the bottom of this. Who is this 'unnamed CyCon official?' It's now rather obvious there's a rat somewhere.

	01-01-2004 20:06									#24
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My stance:
Get milatary units to help with PEACE
When the war is over, demand the CyCon fork over stuff.
When they don't go to war and own them.

	02-01-2004 03:04									#25
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You mean "pwn"?

	02-01-2004 18:14									#26
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quote: Word from CyCon on the issue: quote:The CyCon has said nothing of the sort. We have specifically said we do not expect you to join in the war against PEACE. I must ask who the source was?- Drogue I'm inclined to believe them given the fact that I do not consider the CyCon stupid enough to try and pull off a stunt like that. The only question which remains now is who was the saboteur? I think someone has a lot of explaining to do.

quote: I don't know, but I want to get to the bottom of this. Who is this 'unnamed CyCon official?' It's now rather obvious there's a rat somewhere.

Well, probably its not Drogue, as he is asking who it was. However this would be classic denial trick. Of course PMs are called PMs for a reason.

-Jam

	03-01-2004 02:55									#27
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Sorry I didn't have time to contribute more input earlier. Now I will attempt to write out my understanding of the situation, see if it will help anybody.

As the Hive's CC ambassador, I have discussed with Function Drogue and Maniac regarding their upcoming PEACE war and the Hive-CC relationship in a talk recently. I have restated the Hive's position. I told the CC that the Hive is very willing to further the Hive CC relationship, with the cavert that CC must understand that at this time there are not enough support for us to go into a joint victory report with the CC. The CC informed me that by this turn (2150) the CC is ready to accept the Hive's pact offer. Also the CC will start its PEACE war that it has been planning for some time.

We have also talked about this following detail. Since the Hive is currently pacted with the PEACE, after the CC declares vendetta against the PEACE, the computer will automatically change the Hive CC relationship to vendetta. It was agreed that the CC will immediately offer a pact back to us. And I have agreed that the Hive will accept it.

In that talk as well as other previous communications through the Embassy, the CC understood and accepted the Hive's stance toward the PEACE: that we are not prepared to go into war with the PEACE at this moment, because we would like to keep our integrity of the pact, and also because we don't have any military force to spare. We have discussed in the case if the university will declare vendetta against CC, we may want to offer our spiritual help to the CC by declaring vendetta against the university, but again we have made sure that the CC understands that due to our limited military ability, this would mainly be a gesture, instead of an actual war.

Based on the above information, I have seriously conservation about the aforementioned "CyCon Ultimatum". It appeared to be a drastic departure from the CC's stance toward us, so drastic that I doubt its truthfulness. I am not accusing Comrade Jamski was lying here. Rather, I believe in the spirit of helping the CC Hive relationship, Comrade Jamski had taken initiatives to contact the CC. However because he had not been involved in the game and was not very clear about the current situation, there might be some misunderstanding and thus led to this PM perhaps from one CC function.

Since now it has been officially denied by the CyCons, I believe we should not taken this as the CC's official stance.

	03-01-2004 18:18									#28
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To add to what HongHu said, I got a PM today from xxxx, which said I should not have told anyone about his/her PMs, especially with Tass's witch-hunt thread in action.

quote: Since now it has been officially denied by the CyCons, I believe we should not taken this as the CC's official stance.

I agree, although there is still the possibilty that this could be thier unofficial stance...

-Jam

	16-06-2004 03:48									#29
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Man, this was really from someone...

	16-06-2004 06:40									#30
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quote: We are not officially perma-pacted with the CyCon

Frankychan, believing we're in an unofficial perma-pact.

quote: Told ya, the 'balancing act' wouldn't last long.

Octavian X, believing we're trying to do a balancing act with the Cycon to play cycon off against the peace.

I just noticed the above.
See one person thinks we're in unofficial perma-pact and another thinks we're trying to play cycon off against the peace. Proof on the greatness of Hive diplomancy.