31-12-2003 07:21									#1
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I've been meaning to post this for a bit, but have been occupied with holiday berserking (and recovery).

I referred to some horrible Civ deeds in the thread I did about Atari in the NY Times, but didn't come clean. Here is the true story.

My first C3C epic game was as Scandy, to see the change in traits in action, and oh, well, for other reasons.

Given the FP problems, I decided to use Berserks as reaaaaallll bastards, not so much to gain territory as to f*ck with strong AI civs... rape, pillage, and burn.

The screenshot below is of my first attack on the Ottomans, who were a truly scary KAI in this game.

This game, and what I did, made me feel UNBELIEVABLY guilty, enough that it has had me pondering: 1) How much this game sucks you in, and what that means in the context of gaming / entertainment (see the aricle), and 2) whether I need a Civ psychiatrist.

Here it is: I planned on trimming the Ottomans, and the other strong AI civs from the sea... just beating the ever lovin' cr*p outta them, not being strong enough to hold territory.

Starting with Istanbul... this meant razing a city that had the Oracle, Leonardo's Workshop (after a quick round of upgrades), J.S. Bach's Cathedral, and Universal Sufferage.

I did it. THE PAIN, THE MISERY, THE TORTURE!!! I still can;t believe I did that!

(but damn, in a roleplaying way, I felt 7 feet tall, in berseker mode, and let me tell ya 'bout bein' a bad *ss!)

Attachment: guilty - o, lw, jsb, us.jpg
This has been downloaded 308 time(s).

	31-12-2003 21:14									#2
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Try the Middle Ages Conquest as Denmark/Norway or better still Sweden. The way to growth and success is slave workers. The way to VP's is to raze everyone else's coastal towns, kill their kings and destroy their civs.

I marched across Iberia (east to west) destroying the Castilians (2 3xBerserk armies). When I reached the Atlantic I had about 7 or 8 slave workers that would not fit into the available longships so slaughtered them on the beach.

How near to black hole dark is your dark side?

	31-12-2003 21:23									#3
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Cerberus, you one bloody bad dude sometimes,,,,, on the beach

	31-12-2003 21:47									#4
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quote: razing a city that had the Oracle, Leonardo's Workshop, J.S. Bach's Cathedral, and Universal Sufferage.

I'm not sure I could bring myself to do that. That's just evil.

-Arrian

	31-12-2003 23:32									#5
	Inflate your Upload Space

As someone posted somewhere else once, it would be nice if there were a "moral victory" option, where you win by being incredibly nice all the way through! I suppose that is what the Diplomatic Victory is, in essence. Personally I'd like it if the other civilisations took much greater offence at things like razing cities, and if such actions might encourage them to band together against guilty parties.

	01-01-2004 00:11									#6
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quote: As someone posted somewhere else once, it would be nice if there were a "moral victory" option, where you win by being incredibly nice all the way through! I suppose that is what the Diplomatic Victory is, in essence. Personally I'd like it if the other civilisations took much greater offence at things like razing cities, and if such actions might encourage them to band together against guilty parties.

That's what the Diplomatic Victory is. Play nice, and you win because everyone likes you! (Sissies )

I'm pretty sure it doesn't already account for this, but I would like to see AI Civs hate you even more for:

-If the city is at least two eras old
-If the city contains a Wonder at least an era old
-If the city is a City or Metropolis

	01-01-2004 00:17									#7
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I think the extra hate is too harsh considering that you already get hate for stuff that's not your fault.
If the not-my-fault things were fixed, then razing a wonder or similar should create the opposite of "Linked Alliance".

In fact, I think it should reduce WW for the offendee, due to jingoistic/nationalistic outrage. Maybe for C4.

	01-01-2004 06:51									#8
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV Try the Middle Ages Conquest as Denmark/Norway or better still Sweden. The way to growth and success is slave workers. The way to VP's is to raze everyone else's coastal towns, kill their kings and destroy their civs.

Was there an incident in the recent past which led you to this conclusion?

	01-01-2004 07:10									#9
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At last Theseus, your wonder addiction is cured

	01-01-2004 09:52									#10
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quote: Starting with Istanbul... this meant razing a city that had the Oracle, Leonardo's Workshop (after a quick round of upgrades), J.S. Bach's Cathedral, and Universal Sufferage.

:vomit:

	01-01-2004 22:59									#11
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Did you Raze it, or Abandon it?

If you waited and used Leo's for upgrades, then you probably had to abandon it, unless you gave it back to them and then took it again, it which case you could RAZE it.

I'm not sure how much distinction the AI gives between Razing and Abandoning, but somehow I think that Razing is somewhat worse.

quote: Originally posted by Cerbykins At last Theseus, your wonder addiction is cured

Indeed!

Steven

	01-01-2004 23:03									#12
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One other thought:

It seems that (at least in Theseus' hands) Berzerks retain their utility well into the next age!

Pure

Steven

	02-01-2004 11:19									#13
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV How near to black hole dark is your dark side?

You seem perfectly normal to me.

	02-01-2004 11:21									#14
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The only sin in Civ is letting the AI take advantage of you.

	03-01-2004 06:08									#15
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Not much point keeping it if there's a chance it will flip back anyway, costing you your entire garrison and then a bunch more units and a whole lot of time to transport them over when you return for the revenge attack.

Deep inside enemy territory, there is little utility in retaining cities just for the wonders, IMHO.

The only exception I believe is when it is the start of a prolonged campaign to take over their territory...but in this case it seems your Beserk's are of the "rape and pillage and get home in time for tea" type!

	03-01-2004 13:17									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Thriller "rape and pillage and get home in time for tea" type!

Ahh, a civilized barbarian. Gotta love 'em.

	04-01-2004 23:21									#17
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Hmm, I doubt anything can beat saturation nuking of a city, as in turning every last land square in its radius into a puddle of orange glowing goo. Since it's wartime, the AI doesn't send out its settlers, and the city starves to the ground.

	07-01-2004 06:05									#18
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quote: Originally posted by steven8r Did you Raze it, or Abandon it? If you waited and used Leo's for upgrades, then you probably had to abandon it, unless you gave it back to them and then took it again, it which case you could RAZE it. I'm not sure how much distinction the AI gives between Razing and Abandoning, but somehow I think that Razing is somewhat worse. Steven

You are correct... but as there would clearly be majority of Ottoman citizens at the time of abandonment, I would suffer the same reputation effects as in razing.

See, I think like the AI!

	07-01-2004 06:21									#19
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quote: Originally posted by steven8r One other thought: It seems that (at least in Theseus' hands) Berzerks retain their utility well into the next age! Pure Steven

Next age? Ah, Lucy, let me 'splain.

Rifles?

HAH!!

Berserks are bad-*sses.

Infantry?

DOUBLE HAH!!

3xBerserk Armies attacking from sea with Mil Academy and amphib bonus have attack of somewhere between 12-13 (depending on how rounding happens), and between 12-15 hps.

Defending Infantry will have 4-5 hps, and possibly 10 or more defense, depending on which modifiers kick in (I believe none, other than coastal fortress, which should be bombarded away anyway, and is hardly an issue).

Unstoppable until MIs?

And even THEN!! Properly softened, I'd take my chances on a 4xBerserk Army (15 attack, 16-20 hps) against a 1 hp MI.

	07-01-2004 07:02									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus (emphasis added) 3xBerserk Armies attacking from sea with Mil Academy and amphib bonus have attack of somewhere between 12-13 (depending on how rounding happens), and between 12-15 hps.

Is there an amphib bonus? There were rumors of an undisclosed amphib bonus in Civ and PTW which proved to be untrue. And then there were comments / hints that at the very least amphib bonuses were explored for C3C -- but I've never seen any definitive statement nor any test posted. Have you confirmed that there is a bonus in C3C?

Catt

	07-01-2004 07:13									#21
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Hmmm... not totally confirmed, but I could swear I saw somewhere that it is 25%.

And to repeat for the umpteenth time, we do not done what defense modifiers are in effect during an amphib attack.

(So, yeah, color me *optimistic* about amphib attacks... let me have my dreams. )

	07-01-2004 07:47									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus And to repeat for the umpteenth time, we do not done what defense modifiers are in effect during an amphib attack.

We know of some. Back in the day of "On the Use and Utility of Marines" I did test whether city defensive bonuses (+50% for City and +100% for Metro) applied to amphib assaults and confirmed that they did apply -- the defensive modifiers for fortified unit and terrain also applied (I did not test walls). I had heard that either: (1) walls gave no defense bonus against amphib assualts; and/or (2) there were no City / Metro defensive bonuses against amhib. I never tested walls, but the conventional speculation about defensive bonuses for city size seemed to me to be disproved.

Probably worth a test in C3C to explore the possibility!

Catt

	07-01-2004 08:51									#23
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quote: Defending Infantry will have 4-5 hps, and possibly 10 or more defense, depending on which modifiers kick in (I believe none, other than coastal fortress, which should be bombarded away anyway, and is hardly an issue).

Actually, defense 15 if they're fortified

	07-01-2004 09:31									#24
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Re-testing is a must... I'll try to do so over the coming weekend.

Back on topic:

The reason I posted this thread was the guilt and dismay I felt at doing what I did.

Anybody else got horror stories?

	07-01-2004 15:15									#25
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No such stories I can recall, but we are not going to ever let you forget this, Theseus.

How can you live with yourself?

	07-01-2004 15:48									#26
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The worst thing I ever did was declare war on a friendly nation to seize a resource that it didn't know it had, because it was too primitive. I have to say I'm utterly feeble in this game. I have never, ever razed a city or deliberately starved one, and I hardly ever use the whip. I try to rule in an enlightened and benevolent manner and to treat the peoples of all nations with respect and harmony. Then I get wiped out by the Zulu.

	07-01-2004 16:17									#27
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http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...ial#post1473776 (near the end of the post)

I don't really feel guilty about it though... it was just for testing and documention purposes!

Moonsinger has some very interesting stories on the subject of this thread. (nuking her own cities to make flood plains )

	07-01-2004 16:23									#28
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Good to see that Theseus and I have the same playstile

	08-01-2004 11:14									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Next age? Ah, Lucy, let me 'splain. Rifles? HAH!! Berserks are bad-*sses. Infantry? DOUBLE HAH!! 3xBerserk Armies attacking from sea with Mil Academy and amphib bonus have attack of somewhere between 12-13 (depending on how rounding happens), and between 12-15 hps. Defending Infantry will have 4-5 hps, and possibly 10 or more defense, depending on which modifiers kick in (I believe none, other than coastal fortress, which should be bombarded away anyway, and is hardly an issue). Unstoppable until MIs? And even THEN!! Properly softened, I'd take my chances on a 4xBerserk Army (15 attack, 16-20 hps) against a 1 hp MI.

Well, Berzerks are unstopable in (some) human hands. I recently played as Japan and the Scandies were my neighbors. They had a nasty habit of putting towns in spots that I'd already selected AND having more techs than me. Fortunately they had no Iron! I sent-in my Swordsmen vs their Spears, Archers, and Berserk and... well, they're now extinct.

Berzerk are VERY good at attack, but kinda sucky on defense. Of course, every one of my Swords that was attacked by Berzerk died, but that just left a (sometimes) wounded (almost always) defenseless Viking Target for my stack o' Swords to demolish. Fortunately the AI doesen't understand the intricacies of Amphibious Assault!

So, are Berzerk Armys Amphib? How about combined Berzerk/Marine???

Steven

	08-01-2004 15:28									#30
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It's not in the same league as what Theseus did but in a PBEM game I recently abandoned my (size 12) capital which I could no longer defend in order to deny an opponent the Hanging Gardens.

Sorry Alva.