02-01-2004 15:09									#31
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quote: Thinking about it in a role-play or realism point of view... you would research what is available to you now, rather than in order to get something 1000 years from now.

Galciv (unpatched) didn't let you see the tech tree. Almost everyone ranted against that feature, so Brad Wardell reluctantly put something of a tech tree viewer in (only hyperlinks, not a global view).

If the strong reason for having eras is the display of the tech tree, then go ahead Firaxis, and make them a purely cosmetic thing.

	02-01-2004 16:19									#32
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Fosse Not completely related... Having the whole tech tree available to look at as part of the game always was jolting to me. It never sat well. Thinking about it in a role-play or realism point of view... you would research what is available to you now, rather than in order to get something 1000 years from now. I know, I know... we would all plan ahead in previous games, and someone would make an Excel file with the tree, etc. Besides, I'm a little off topic. *sigh* Happy New Year's.

The problem with that is, after one or two games you'll know the tech tree. Plus, you have the pedia, right? There's no point denying basic game information to the player, because the player will figure it out quickly anyways, and be pissed at not having a quick reference.

	02-01-2004 20:00									#33
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker The problem with that is, after one or two games you'll know the tech tree. Plus, you have the pedia, right? There's no point denying basic game information to the player, because the player will figure it out quickly anyways, and be pissed at not having a quick reference.

Exactly!

This was my problem with the absence of an "intelligence advisor" in Civ3, one that sums up all the info already available about other Civs in a convenient screen.

	03-01-2004 02:01									#34
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*sigh* I know... I didn't even bring up the "No visible tech tree" as a request, just a musing. Certainly my thoughts were the same as the designers of GalCiv which led them to leave it out originally... and just like theirs mine completely ignored the fact that players want to know what is going on.

It served nothing except to let me vent and to push this thread off topic!

	03-01-2004 06:37									#35
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Separate Ancient Trees for Culture Groups

The main good thing about the era system in my point of view is that it could be changed so in the ancient age different culture groups could have their own trees. All civs in one group could have basically the same ancient tree, but there could be one or two differences for each civ in the group. There could also be distinction between civs that actually exist in a particular age and those which do not.

Taking Different Directions

Mostly I do not like Eras. I want to be able to favor one field over another to a greater degree than in Civ2. I want the technologies of those considered primative to be good competition in the game even though they are not so in the real world.

Music

I like era- specific music.

Showing the Tree

Instead of eras that you can divide so you can see the whole thing on one screen, bring back the foldout poster that comes in the box.

Realism Versus Fun

Some things are not meant to be realistic. You are supposed to be able to control things better than in real life. Your units obey you unquestioningly. When you've played before, you know more than if you are a ruler in real life. This cannot be changed. It is all right to know the tech tree.

	03-01-2004 08:45									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Brent Separate Ancient Trees for Culture Groups The main good thing about the era system in my point of view is that it could be changed so in the ancient age different culture groups could have their own trees. All civs in one group could have basically the same ancient tree, but there could be one or two differences for each civ in the group. There could also be distinction between civs that actually exist in a particular age and those which do not.

But you could just design different tech trees for differnt civs or culture groups without eras. I think that this fails the litmus test LDiCesare gave us earlier.

The other points you bring up for eras are also easily done wihtout them, such as music.

quote: Showing the Tree Instead of eras that you can divide so you can see the whole thing on one screen, bring back the foldout poster that comes in the box.

Hear, hear!

	03-01-2004 10:12									#37
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quote: king Different Directions Mostly I do not like Eras. I want to be able to favor one field over another to a greater degree than in Civ2. I want the technologies of those considered primative to be good competition in the game even though they are not so in the real world.

MORE than in C2? You realize you could research genetic engineering before electronics in C2, right?

	09-01-2004 10:59									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior We could make a pretty cool hybrid system. How does this sound? 1. The science advisor looks the same, but instead of 4 screens, you can scroll horizontally to reveal more of the tech tree. 2. Dotted lines are drawn where the new eras come. However, the techs from one age are regular prerequisites for the techs from the next. For example, Flight is required for Rocketry, but not Ecology. 3. Once you have as many techs from the next age as you are missing from your current age, you advance to the next era, city art changes, leaderheads get new outfits, etc. For example, a civ missing three ancient techs that knows three medieval techs will be in the medieval era. However, a civ missing two ancient techs that only knows one medieval tech will still be in the ancient era. What do you guys think of this?

I like that..... or something like that.

I can't remember how many times I have felt like this

just because the advance I expected/needed/wanted - and most important, should be possible from the sciencelevel my civ had - didn't show up in the list. Forcing me to go for another more-or-less useless advance.

	10-01-2004 00:26									#39
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quote: 1. The science advisor looks the same, but instead of 4 screens, you can scroll horizontally to reveal more of the tech tree. 2. Dotted lines are drawn where the new eras come. However, the techs from one age are regular prerequisites for the techs from the next. For example, Flight is required for Rocketry, but not Ecology.

Scrolling is not as pleasant as viewing a next page.
Showing the last 3 techs and the next 3 techs available (in depth) from where one is on a page would probably be ebough to let the player make mid-to-long-term choices in what they want to research next, while a different, more static view could be used for the civilopedia.

If you reduce eras to dots on the tech tree, I feel like having these.

	01-04-2004 01:02									#40
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Of course we need eras. No one has ever made a full-history tech tree that wasn't seriously abusable. If you want you can put all the techs in one age, like many Conquests scenarios do. (Which makes sense, since the scenarios often only covers one age.)

	24-06-2004 23:17									#41
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space-time is the biggest fabrication of western civilization

	25-06-2004 17:54									#42
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Do you mean Einstein's discovery that space and time form a continuum or what? Of course, we could add the theory of relativity to the tech tree... as a prereq for nukes (E = mc˛)

	25-06-2004 19:30									#43
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yes, but add a future eara too

	25-06-2004 19:55									#44
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I think that the chief problem with eras as they are implemented is that the majority of techs within an era are required before you can advance to the next one. The simplest solution, then, would be to reduce the number of techs that are needed for era advancement.

For example, to advance to the Medieval Age, I think you should need to have Philosophy, one government other than Despotism, and 25% of all other ancient-age techs.

Then, the techs you can research in the Medieval Age depend on you having the specific prerequisites for that tech. For example, to research Engineering you would have to have Construction, and to research Monotheism, you would have to have Polytheism (or Mysticism if you want to insist that a society can go from having no concept of gods straight to a Monotheistic religion).

To enter the Industrial Age, you would need Navigation and the Printing Press, and to enter the Modern Age you would need Electronics (since most of the Modern Age advances are either computer-based or require computers for their development).

	25-06-2004 20:14									#45
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I'd say Industrial Age also requires gunpowder and maybe the steam machine (unless you count the latter as an industrial progress, of course). Modern Age may require combustion, for cars and power plants.

	25-06-2004 20:34									#46
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I agree that Gunpowder should probably be necesary for the Industrial Age. As for Combustion needed for the Modern Age, I was under the impression that Combustion was required to get Electronics via Combustion-->Mass Production-->Electronics. I might be wrong though.

	28-06-2004 03:01									#47
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Has it occurred to you that the civ3 tree is broken? Balance questionbs aside, there isn't really any causal relationship between the discovery of combustion and electronics.

	28-06-2004 03:20									#48
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don't have a clue

	28-06-2004 18:46									#49
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I never liked the fact that many techs in civ3 don't do anything useful, like steel. They're only required for other techs.

	01-07-2004 14:02									#50
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Most of the arguments here against Eras are just arguments against the Tech Tree system. Why do I need to research Iron Working to discover Construction? The Maya and Aztecs built massive structures without Iron. Why do I need monotheism for Democracy? There's a thousand and one problems with the Tech Tree, and I feel that something like that is unavoidable in cIV.

I like the Era system. It divides the tech tree into easy, managable chunks, and allows me to think "to get tanks fast, I need to work out how to refine oil", rather than making me think "okay, to get tanks fast, I need to research Pottery".

Plus, I love having the tech tree displayed on the computer. Unfolding the tech tree during the game is not fun, and since I always lose those sheets. (except the Alpha Centauri one. I have that hung on my wall in the computer room, just because it looks cool.)

	02-07-2004 15:33									#51
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Eras were present in civ from the start. In civ2 for instance, citizens and cities change their appearance when you research both philosophy and invention (renaissance), then again when you research industrialisation (industrial) and finally when you research automobile (modern).


I think the tech tree should be more flexible and more logical (not requiring iron working for construction for instance). And you should have about 4 terminal techs in each era and be able to advance to the next age when you research 2 of them. This would allow different paths of development including builder and warmonger beelines which characterised civ2.

	02-07-2004 18:52									#52
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The problem with Eras is that they are inherently unrealistic, and if you have an Era system like that in Civ3, then you can't split up military tech and infrastructure tech that much. If you try to do two seperate lines, then when you get to the next age you might get oddities when you can make musketmen without knowing how to work Iron, or get a Democracy without a Republic.

It needs to go back to the Civ2 style system, but show a tech tree display, and have arbitray pages, each showing an "Era." You can then scroll further to the right and see the next era and what you need for the individual Techs there. Perhaps there should be markers on the techs you need to change your city appearence...maybe 3-4 takes per "Era" and you need any two?

-Drachasor

	02-07-2004 19:49									#53
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In the good old 1st Civ, the cities (in the city view, if you conquered a city or your folks revolted or celebrated, or when you completed a new building) were gradually developing: During the progress from Antique to Medieval, most houses in the city view were simple huts, but there already was one or another medieval city house among them... ok, it's just eye candy, and not very important, but still... maybe some programmer can dig up the code for it and tweak it...

	03-07-2004 09:35									#54
	Increase Your PM Length

There are eras in Civ3 already: they're called ages (in the tech tree). Eras in Civ4 sound more like Conquests in that they are more localized. Perhaps the Eras will be more like a combo of Ages and Conquests.

I voted no but I'm actually indifferent to the idea. I just hope the grand epic games are not affected.

	03-07-2004 22:58									#55
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No.

Eras turn the tech tree into a tech tickbox. Ridiculous tech disparities can be eliminated by intelligent design, rather than the artificial restriction of eras.

	03-07-2004 23:15									#56
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It looks like most people want to keep the eras anyway.

	04-07-2004 00:06									#57
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Some interesting discussion.

I'm against the idea of fixed eras. Better (IMO) to restructure the tech restrictions.
It shouldn't be too hard to implement an OR prerequisite (as opposed to the AND prerequesities we all know and love),
which could in a way make 'ages'.

With enough OR clauses (sensible OR clauses) you could rig it so that a majority of techs in one region of the tech tree are needed to get a decent amount in the next region.

There wouldn't be eras, but you wouldn't be able to get GeneEng before Electro.

	04-07-2004 02:54									#58
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Era effects:

- Prevent beelining (causes anachronisms so bad)
- change graphics / sound interface (can be done with techs)
- trigger event for free tech for scientific civ
- trigger event for barbarian horde (unrealistic)

The free tech for scientific civ is a bit weak anyway. I'd replace it with a research bonus similar to the agricultural trait food bonus.

The last one makes no sense from a causality pov - barbarians don't watch your scientists carefully, waiting for you to discover that last era tech before attaacking en masse. They do it as and when they feel like it. Barbarian hordes should be random, something like civ2 style.

For those who like the presentation value of the era system, have you had a look at test of time? That one dynamically made a graphical tech tree based on the rules.txt file. ok, it didnt show the entire tree in one go, but it showed enough to see the immediate relationships clearly.

	04-07-2004 02:59									#59
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

It is a fantasy world, after all. Why worry about so many Anachronisms?
They just make it a little more fun to see really awry civilisations.

	04-07-2004 21:49									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Enigma_Nova It is a fantasy world, after all. Why worry about so many Anachronisms?

Fantasy world yes, but I'd like to see enough realism in all elements of the game so it would be easier to relate to and therefore more fun (i.e. its more fun to crush the country of your choice rather than a fantasy land).