03-01-2004 03:31									#151
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I was adding evidence to my agreement of your point of Americans as generally reluctant warriors. That they are reluctant warriors though has less to do with fear of the horrors of war but with other values, inherently more inward looking ones.

If we go to war we're damned unfeeling bloody minded warriors who deserve 9/11, and if we DONT go to war, we're selfish isolationists. Sometimes in the very same conflict - Serbs and their pals see us as the nasty agressors who bombed Belgrade, while some Islamists blame us for not interveneing earlier in Bosnia and Kosovo. Ok, makes sense on some level, i guess.


WRT Iraq - without getting into "evidence" It is not at all clear that the admin couldnt have made a case for intervention on primarily humanitarian/expand democracy grounds tied into an argument (which the admin adopted from the neocons and liberalhawks only very late) that demo in Iraq is part of the WOT. The reason such an approach was rejected is apparently due to objections from elements in the admin(notably the CIA and the State Dept) that claimed (perhaps rightly) that such arguments would alienate arab allies in the region, notably Saudi Arabia. WMD was the only argument CIA , State, and the neocons could agree on, and since CIA affirmed they had evidence on WMD, the neocons went along.

	03-01-2004 03:36									#152
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quote: Originally posted by GePap [quote]Only if we don't witness some immense war in the next few years- thus buying more time. What it indicates is that if we want to avert war, we must trust to mechanism independent form political opinons.

Huh? See how quickly the logic necessary to this line of thinking falls apart?

quote: One of the reasons the Vietnam war memorial is so powerful is that it does nothing to aggrandize the cause fo war, only to show you what it costs. The coming WW2 memorial on the other hand will be more Soviet-like -some massive edifice to the glory of that war.

I agree... more memorials should be constructed like the Vietnam one.

quote: Wh siad American ignore history? (though most do)- it is an issue of always lookign ahead or today: think of how much people in the uS styrive for things to be quick, or disposable? Think about it-we are a nation obessed with making sure we have the new thing, and are able to, without worry, get rid of what we once had. To some degree this is general ocnsumer trend, but I have bene i Europe and Latin America, and the throwaway society is stronger here than elsewhere. In how many towns is something hisotrical of any interest in the US? Beyond that fact most towns in this country are two young to hold much of historical value, beyond places like plymouth planation, most greet tourist attractions are not based on history, but on size, grandeur or achievement, which are not the same criteria. I live in NYC, a city with huge history, but until the 1960's no one cared if some great historic hall got torn down to make room for the next new modern building- it took until 1964 and the tearing down od a huge landmark for people to start trying to save thier history.

Who said Americans ignore history? You did when you said:

quote: Add this to the general fact American ignore history and the past, while Europeans still primarily define themselves on it.

How quickly we forget... but anyways, to say that American society is more "disposable" than European society is a bold statement. A culture being "disposable" goes far beyond buildings, it has to do with material consumption as well. You produce just as much waste as we do, which is the prime characteristic of "disposable" socieities. Besides, can you offer any sociological reports or studies to back up this sweeping claim?

	03-01-2004 03:45									#153
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Sadly you Dad and men like him are not the ones building the new WW2 memorial, but instead the children, weaned on "Greatest Generation" crap.

I don't think many veterans of WWII who were actually in combat enjoy war for war's sake. They know first hand that war is hell. Having your comrades killed around you is bad. But killing the enemy is just as bad. It is sickening.

	03-01-2004 05:25									#154
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld Do you want to live in a society of children and sing lullabies to everyone while bombs are droping on the rest of the world? Reminds me of the world in Farenheit 451.

How does that site promote this thing you are talking about exactly? I still don't see what is wrong with it. I mean a person only has to watch the news to see that there are some terrible things going over there. I don't see the purpose of sitting a child down and telling them that mommy or daddy faces constant danger every day and they could be blown up at any second by muslim extremist. Then proceed to explain in graphic detail all the horrible things that could happen. Do you?

	03-01-2004 07:44									#155
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Well, given the choice to live in the past or anticipate the future, I'll always take the future. The past is, well, past.

But I guess that's the American in me talkin'.

	03-01-2004 08:04									#156
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

honestly, i don't see why more people aren't *****ing about the poor choice of format for the material. IT'S FLASH OVERKILL, FOLKS! **** FLASH! EVERY TOM, ****, AND HARRY IS NOW USING FLASH BECAUSE THEY THINK IT'S COOL AND IT'S SO NOT! ****ERS!

	03-01-2004 08:10									#157
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Well, given the choice to live in the past or anticipate the future, I'll always take the future. The past is, well, past. But I guess that's the American in me talkin'.

You'd be singing a different tune if you knew someone who went through a war 60 years ago.

	03-01-2004 08:17									#158
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Well, I do. My Dad was in Korea. But I have no idea what that has to do with anything...

	03-01-2004 12:51									#159
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Well, I do. My Dad was in Korea. But I have no idea what that has to do with anything...

Sarcasm.