01-01-2004 14:52									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor It is an emotefest. It is a completely artificial displa of emotion -oh our boys are great, we love'em- that has nothing to do with the dull/boring/enraging/slaughtering reality of the field. I don't need soldiers raping babies, but I think it is an extremely bad tribute to the soldiers to show them as all huggy-nilly rather than in a true light. This "tribute" is obviously meant for the civilian audience back home. I'd personally feel insulted if I was a soldier, because it looks highly patronizing.

its not a documentary, its a tribute. really now this is just friggin silly. do we go up to our high school graduations and the principle hands u ur diploma and he's like

"well sorta congratulations, ur actually not a good student and u've passed because recent political necessity has forced us to not fail minorities. in all reality u will goto college have a great time then drop out get a job and get someone pregnant, tho possibly not in that order."

do u think the soldiers don't miss their families? do u think the families don't miss the soldiers?

	01-01-2004 19:15									#92
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon do u think the soldiers don't miss their families? do u think the families don't miss the soldiers?

Obviously they do. But as Sprayber pointed out, the audience of this tribute aren't the soldiers, but civilians in the US looking for a feelgood experience.
As I stated earlier, I hold this video for highly patronizing, and I'd feel insulted if I was an American soldier on the field. An actual letter from my family, a phonecall from my wife or girlfriend, a greeting card from the kids would be heartwarming. Not a patronizing video on the internet only intended at showing to the Civvie audience that soldiers are really great people we should all love...

	01-01-2004 22:30									#93
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell Yeah, a continent that has hosted the last two (and only two) "World Wars" doesn't know anything about war...yeah, a continent that has been blasting each others' guts out for the last 1000 years...the same continent that had all those bloody revolutions (like the French one)...and in the last 50 years saw its division between US pawns and Soviet pawns. Yeah, I think they don't know much about war either

The certainly know how to get in them huh?

Thanks for backing up my point.

	01-01-2004 22:38									#94
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Initially the frame of a soldier bent over facing a child reminds me of that German WW1 poster "Belgians, the Germans are your friends!"

Two problems:

1/ Obessiveness with the Soldier. Almost like a fascist soldier cult. "My Teacher says you're big and strong".

2/ Anodynised. No "My Teacher says you're friends are being ****ed by insurgents".

It puts across the image of a 'saintly' military action. Which -regardless of the merits of the war- is dangerous. War is mad bad and never 'good'. Who was it who said "Now matter how justified, or how righteous, war is always a crime" ? Not meaning that all wars are unjustified, just that they're bad.

Edit: Seeing the last frame of GWB in the Oval Office made me piss myself! The incongruity is amazing.

Last edited by Evil Knevil on 01-01-2004 at 23:09

	02-01-2004 01:15									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Obviously they do. But as Sprayber pointed out, the audience of this tribute aren't the soldiers, but civilians in the US looking for a feelgood experience. As I stated earlier, I hold this video for highly patronizing, and I'd feel insulted if I was an American soldier on the field. An actual letter from my family, a phonecall from my wife or girlfriend, a greeting card from the kids would be heartwarming. Not a patronizing video on the internet only intended at showing to the Civvie audience that soldiers are really great people we should all love...

name a tribute that shows the dark underbelly of what its paying tribute to? go ahead? I think ur being completely and utterly inane. and I all but guarentee you that the feeling of "patronization" of the american soldier over BEING PAID TRIBUTE TO on the internet is zero.

	02-01-2004 01:42									#96
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You know, I still don't get why this site is wrong. Eurocoms are just being their anti-American selves I guess. ::shrug::

	02-01-2004 01:59									#97
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Why is everyone making a big deal of this website? Knevil compared it to nazi propaganda and Spiffor is mad because it didn't show blood and guts. It is a simple tribute page designed for familes of soldiers. The families don't care about politics, they don't give a damn about George Bush, they don't care what about the geopolitical stability of Iraq or its neighbors. They only care that, daddy, mommy, brother, son, daughter, husband or wife is not beside them when they go to bed at night. And Knevil let me let you in on a little secret. The people are obsessed with the soldier because they are their husbands, and wives, and daughters and sons. You can call that facist if you want to, but I call it being concerned about people that is your family. You may not know anything about that, but there are a lot of people who do. ........

	02-01-2004 02:25									#98
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I think the little flash movie is simply hilarious. Less hilarious is that some people actually take it serious

	02-01-2004 02:50									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Why is everyone making a big deal of this website? Knevil compared it to nazi propaganda and Spiffor is mad because it didn't show blood and guts. It is a simple tribute page designed for familes of soldiers. The families don't care about politics, they don't give a damn about George Bush, they don't care what about the geopolitical stability of Iraq or its neighbors. They only care that, daddy, mommy, brother, son, daughter, husband or wife is not beside them when they go to bed at night. And Knevil let me let you in on a little secret. The people are obsessed with the soldier because they are their husbands, and wives, and daughters and sons. You can call that facist if you want to, but I call it being concerned about people that is your family. You may not know anything about that, but there are a lot of people who do. ........

I never likened it to Nazi propaganda. Just that such blatant soldier cultism has a parrallel.

If you want you can call family concern, I'll call it crypto-fascism, we'll both be happy

	02-01-2004 03:07									#100
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Imran, Sprayber,

Our approach to tributes isn't one of intense - intense - emotional overflow and the use of children to send out a message that isn't just limited to "Thanks for your work" but also sends out strong messages on some cultural, religious and political matters which don't really fit the general theme. To a lesser extent, soldiers are glorified everywhere but when "Eurocoms" (!) choose to pay tribute to soldiers, they don't include God or political figures.
I'm not going into the question of what's the right way of doing things or if such a way even exists. I'm merely pointing out that when you guys are saying you don't understand the reactions, the reason is probably that you haven't made the necessary efforts to understand the mindsets of the Eurocoms and how they are culturally different from you.

	02-01-2004 03:11									#101
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This is possibly one of the dumbest threads I've seen here.

I thought the ideal is so everybody becomes "alienated from the realities of warfare"? Now people are complaining because hundreds of millions are?

	02-01-2004 04:07									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Evil Knevil I never likened it to Nazi propaganda. Just that such blatant soldier cultism has a parrallel. If you want you can call family concern, I'll call it crypto-fascism, we'll both be happy

Call it what you want, I'm simply curious why it merits this much attention to begin with. If it was something put out by the goverment then thats one thing, but its a website. There is nothing glorious about it. It's not encouraging war, It's simply showing a small snapshot of what they are going through. Don't attempt to read anything more to it than that.

Monk: I'll readly admit that I don't know everything there is to know about how Euros think. But just like you say me and Imran need to apprectiate Euro sensibilites, perhaps it would help just a little if there was some appreciation from the other side as well.

	02-01-2004 04:46									#103
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I don't know what to think of the media presentation linked to, but I am sure that it is done in honesty.

I think we are moving into an age where sentimentality will govern, and not the usual cynicism. I don't know, but I for one, has had enough of cynicism.

As a matter of fact I think this move away from Big City culture to the more honest and clean ideas of truly middle America, that is middle class, and at the same time middle America in the geographical sense, that is the agricultural mid-west, will bring only strength to the whole idea of what is is to be American. This is of course a life of frugality, sacrifice and family.

	02-01-2004 04:59									#104
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quote: I think we are moving into an age where sentimentality will govern, and not the usual cynicism. I don't know, but I for one, has had enough of cynicism.

USUAL cynicism? WHAT?!

	02-01-2004 05:01									#105
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What this thread needs is a good, old...

USA! USA! USA!

You're welcome.

	02-01-2004 05:37									#106
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PRC! PRC!

	02-01-2004 05:44									#107
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Deutschland!

	02-01-2004 12:17									#108
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Bangladesh!!!

	02-01-2004 16:02									#109
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Canada!

	02-01-2004 16:14									#111
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Don't you find it slightly disturbing that human beings have almost always tried to portray soldiers as beings of higher moral virtue than normal people?

I mean, their job is blasting other people to smithereens and there are continual incidences of raping local women, massacring civilians and other such virtuous acts.

More evidence for collective human insanity.

	02-01-2004 18:12									#112
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Well, don't you find it slightly disturbing that human beings have almost always tried to portray Communists as beings of higher moral virtue than normal people?

I mean, their job is killing those who disagree with them, starving farmers and intellectuals and there are continual incidences of imprisoning dissenters, spending 50% of GNP on armaments, and other such virtuous acts.

	02-01-2004 18:19									#113
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker

	02-01-2004 18:41									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber It's not going to show accidental firing on friendly targets. It's not going to show the instances when a soldier dies cause he ****s up. It is going to show soldiers missing their families and all that stuff because that is the sites intended audience.

Exactly.

They're coddling the ignorant and basically saying "Everything's going to be all right. You just keep on praying at night and writing sappy tribute poems, and the big strong rangers will protect you from the bogey man."

	02-01-2004 19:31									#115
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@ JohnT

	02-01-2004 19:51									#116
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat How many of 'em are still around that dealt with WW2 and earlier? The cold war thing was mostly crap for whiners.

Well hardly. I happened to catch the end of the cold war as a bright young thing and it was a real war - very similar to the current war on terror. It was global and people took sides and fought on a whole lot of fronts. It was sometimes dangerous and deadly. I certainly got into a couple of hairy spots - but then when I had hair

I'd say we're at about 1948 in Cold war time right now. This WoT is creating wonderful career opportunities for people like old horsie.

It will probably see me right through to retirement

	02-01-2004 19:57									#117
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Oh my god, that initial site in the first post is horrendous.Pass the vomit smileys!

	02-01-2004 20:05									#118
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What gets me is the USA USA! crowd - you'd think after all the evidence that patriotic little guys get screwed they'd run a mile from war - but nooo, here they are again, all queuing up to be cannon fodder - or cheering on people to go and get shot at - which is so much worse - and can be kind of cowardly to my thinking.

IThis time it will be different eh?

	02-01-2004 20:13									#119
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Here you are

	02-01-2004 21:30									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Your idea that countries don't get knowledge nor experience is completely bull. There is something called "collective memory" or "history" if you prefer it that way

Is it now? Based on what? Collective memory? Bull, there is no evidence to suggest that collective memory even exists. Its a nice catchphrase we use to justify generalizations and stereotypes; a tradition you are perpetuating by spouting this crap out all over the place.

But what you're saying is that its part of your "collective memory" to be averted to war? Well isn't that noble, but "memory" is a function of an organ inside your head called your brain, and last time I checked countries don't have brains, and therefore can't remember anything. People have brains, and everyone is different, and for you to assume that just because YOUR brain happens to be averted to war, that the brains of your countrymen must be as well (simply by virtue of them being your countrymen) is a dangerous assumption, which borders on ethnocentricsm and even narcicism.

quote: ...I was drowned in tv ads

Yeah, I'm sure you were, but do you really think thats all that different from anywhere else? You really think growing up in Boston I never saw a tv ad depicting war negatively... many, many times? Is that what you really think? Remember how I mentioned ethnocentricism? Also, is there any way for you to prove that I wasn't, or were you just hoping everyone would take you at your word?