31-12-2003 20:07									#1
	AI: I'll die before I give you any techs! Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Has anyone else noticed this?

I'm playing an Emporer game. Japan, 8 other civs, mostly standard everything else.

I'm way behind in techs. I wait a few turns until I can build Samuai. As soon as I get a few Samurai, I amass them to attack Byzantium, I notice that they now have Riflemen defending their cities. OK, It'll just take even more Samurai--which I'll be able to churn-out due to my impending GA.

I attack their cities and (eventually) wear-down their Cavalry and Riflemen w/ my Samurai. I call upon the Aztecs to attack them from the other side to keep them busy. I take their cities closest to me except their capital which I surround w/ my Samurai (to keep the Aztecs from taking it).

I check the diplomacy and they are willing to give Peace for several techs, but not quite all that I can learn. Besides, if I get Peace now, I'll take a rep hit w/ the Aztecs. I can afford to wait it out so I go a few more turns, then peacefully cancel my Aztec alliance. I check the Diplo screen again and, What's This?!?!?! The Byzantines won't even accept an even-up Peace Treaty.

I remain surrounding their last city and bring in my Trebuchets to bombard them a little and take some defenders w/ my Samurai, plus, by my troops occupying all the workable land around Byzantium, they are slowly starving (and losing pop due to drafting Riflemen). A couple turns later, they STILL don't want Peace. Just out of curriosity, I ask Theodora what she would take for Peace and she wants one of her cities back. It doesn't look like she's in a possition to bargain. Frustrated, I let her keep her 'precious techs' and just wipe her out. Hopefully she can eternally rest in peace knowing that her secrets died with her (until I learn or buy them from someone else).

Has anyone else seen this. It seems that the AI would rather become extinct than to give me some techs--even dead-end, no longer useful because somebody else done built the associated Wonder ones.

What's up with this?!?!

Steven

	31-12-2003 21:06									#2
	Put an end to popups!

Not to that extent, but I like it. There is no real point for them to go on, so why help you out?

At the earlier point they still had a strong capitol.

	31-12-2003 21:22									#3
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

nope at the earlier point you had an alliance with the aztecks and those things do affect the peace resolution, since when you are allied it consider you both as one while when you are not allied as two or something like that, it happens to me all the time.

	31-12-2003 21:31									#4
	Tired of ads?

I've seen this too. It seems to me that the closer they are to extinction the less likely they are to bargain. Sometimes I get better deals if I take 1 or 2 cities and wittle down their armies rather than taking over their empire.

	31-12-2003 22:42									#5
	Put an end to popups!

the ai can be very fatalistic. i've noticed that in my late game blitzkriegs (where my enemies aspire to last as long as poland in 39...) the ai simply will not talk to me. ever. thier empire can be cut in half every turn, and i may have no real desire to exteriminate them, but they simply will not talk to me.

	31-12-2003 23:01									#6
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Status quo then

In my current game, me being china on regent level, having the strongest army, but being behind tech wise a bit. Persia was below me and The US & korea on the other continent.

Me and Persia had a nice war going <- and of course i was kicking its ass . But then suddenly the US signs a mutual protection pact with persia. Fearing the US & their units, cause they are ahead tech wise a bit, i decide to go on the defensive and only attack units that are within my territory or on international waters.

Well, the problem with that was, persia stopped attacking me and only fortified some units next to mine on the border. Occasionally it sent over some infantry but i quickly took it out (did some leader farming ). We remained in that state for 20 turns. Persia wouldn't even talk to me to negotiate a peace deal. And when i did get a hold of him once, HE demanded something from me. Ah well, after 20 turns when the MP ran out, i took one of his cities and then made peace with him, gaining some tech


I must say that was a real cool experience. Kinda like real life South & North Korea.

	01-01-2004 04:03									#7
	Re: AI: I'll die before I give you any techs! Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by steven8r Has anyone else seen this. It seems that the AI would rather become extinct than to give me some techs--even dead-end, no longer useful because somebody else done built the associated Wonder ones. What's up with this?!?!

Why does this surprise you? The AI isn't obligated to help you and will do all in its power to make your life difficult even if its down to one city, or a settler on a boat somewhere.

	01-01-2004 04:15									#8
	Remove this text

The reason that it surprises me is that just a few turns before, she was willing to give me peace PLUS several techs, then all of a sudden, she wouldn't even consider a peace treaty. Why, when she was weaker, should she be less willing to deal???

I guess that's why AI's frequently become extinct.

Steven

	01-01-2004 04:23									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

IIRC, AIs take into account the fact that they are fighting multiple guys when they're negotiating peace. See what reallying the Aztecs does, and ask her again.

	01-01-2004 10:56									#10
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Is it strange that alot of the problem threads I'm reading begin with "I'm playing an emperor game..."?

	01-01-2004 11:12									#11
	Remove this text

Good one Vince!

That may very well be my problem.

Steven

	01-01-2004 12:05									#12
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I should also say I'm not implying people can't handle Emperor level, it just seems alot of odd things are happening at that level.

	01-01-2004 12:43									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Not really. Most of the best C3C efforts currently begin there, and those folks are the most demanding

In any case - I'll just kill the AI. OR - -THIS- is the time to make them a client state

Hadn't thought of that..."I like encouraging people to use their heads, whether they like it or not." - you lot just did

	01-01-2004 13:30									#14
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Cerbykins Hadn't thought of that..."I like encouraging people to use their heads, whether they like it or not." - you lot just did

Looks like I won yet another convert.

	02-01-2004 03:54									#15
	Put an end to popups!

As long as the ai civ thinks it has a chance of winning the game it will do whatever it takes to get peace. Especially if it means a rep hit for you, after all the goal of the ai is to wear you down and hurt you in any way possible.

But when the point of no return has been crossed they will do everything in their power to prevent you from gaining any more from them besides their remaining cities. Sort of a scorched tech policy! Remember, the name of the game for the ai is to deny the human player victory. Remember that and strange ai behaviour won't seem so strange anymore.

	02-01-2004 12:34									#16
	Increase Your PM Length

It's a given that the AI conspires and cheats...
We need only state it's 'preferential' trade style as an example

	04-01-2004 14:06									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I wouldn't give them everything I've got once they've lowered my empire to one crumbling city, so I wouldn't expect them to do the same. AI or no. Oblivion is inevitable at that point, seeing as how the same or another civ may declare war at any second and deliver the killing blow.

Happened to the Arabs in my current game as Rome. I levelled them down to one city. They refused to give everything they had (but they surprisingly had a fair bit of gold they WERE willing to offer, which I took). A few turns later, France declared war and wiped them out on the same turn.

	04-01-2004 20:56									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I wouldn't give -anything-, but then - I'm human
Plus, I would do other things like quitting when it got scary a.k.a. hard

	04-01-2004 23:47									#19
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Is Civ3 still like Civ2 where there are essentially 2 players in every game- the human and all the AI, or is there some independence among them?

	05-01-2004 00:03									#20
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I hate how if your in war and you destroyed some of thier cities they won't acknowlegde you. And if they do they offer peace treaty for your peace treaty and a tech one time they even wanted like 100 gold in addition. I was so pissed I just tore down like 10 more of their cities. then they wanted a treaty and I said I wanted 50 gold a tech and the treaty and me give just the peace treaty, and he actually accepted. Because he only had like 10 more cities and I had more troops marching his way. I ripped them off so bad I couldn't help goingright back to war with them after a couple turns and doing another treay for a tech and the treatys.

	05-01-2004 03:43									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Smiley Is Civ3 still like Civ2 where there are essentially 2 players in every game- the human and all the AI, or is there some independence among them?

In civ3 the AI will kill off other civs and become very large given a chance. The AI is suppose to not "gang" up, but in the end it has little choice

	05-01-2004 03:47									#22
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Tillur I hate how if your in war and you destroyed some of thier cities they won't acknowlegde you. And if they do they offer peace treaty for your peace treaty and a tech one time they even wanted like 100 gold in addition. I was so pissed I just tore down like 10 more of their cities. then they wanted a treaty and I said I wanted 50 gold a tech and the treaty and me give just the peace treaty, and he actually accepted. Because he only had like 10 more cities and I had more troops marching his way. I ripped them off so bad I couldn't help goingright back to war with them after a couple turns and doing another treay for a tech and the treatys.

They had to tigten up the AI to prevent the exploiting of demaning cities for peace. People where going to war and demanding cities for peace and then doing it again.
They went a bit far, but I don't see how they could avoid it.

The AI just can not evalute properly and does not have a history to consider.

	05-01-2004 19:01									#23
	Got spare money?

I've seen it a lot. I guess the role of the AI is to make your life as hard as possible, not to survive himself at any cost.