01-01-2004 18:44									#1
	Why Nemoesque Graphics Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I've seen a lot of talk praising "Nemo-esque" graphics to high heaven. But could someone let me in on why they're so popular. I personally think they have a kind of fake and cartoonish look. Is there a virtue I'm missing? I'd really like to appreciate a lot more of what's available for this game, really.

	01-01-2004 20:07									#2
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Frankly, Patine, this is a touchy subject.
In his time, Nemo was quite a pioneer (but definetly not the only one) in good scenarios with consistent style of units. He merits respect for loads of work.
If you don't see this by yourself, nobody will be able to do it for you, imho. So what's the point?

	01-01-2004 21:32									#3
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In a word, why not?

If you can produce real high-res graphics with the limited amount of pixel space that CIV2 gives, I would love to see it.

If the thread author is unhappy with the current graphics work being done by the civ community,
I then respectfully invite him to provide us with a superior alternative.

	01-01-2004 22:31									#4
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Also, cartoonish though they MAY be, that makes them clearly identifiable, and nemo style has evolved into fairline, danny/curt

	01-01-2004 22:40									#5
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I concur, Nemo graphics work nicely with other parts of Civ2 such as the terrain and city screen. They may look cartoonish, but they also are incredibly accurate and detailed. Hi-Res graphics try to be realistic, but with the limited colors of Civ2 they seem blurry. Also, hi-res is usually not completely isometric which makes identifying the units harder and creates a a unit set without uniform units.

And besides. Nemo units allow people like us to spend our free time to be artistic in a forum that appreciates such things.

	01-01-2004 22:51									#6
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Yup!

And I would mention that Mr Tuttle is also one of the creators who have evolved the Nemo style forward.

Sadly, CIV2 has not got the game engine capabilities of CIV3.

In such a 3D environment, incredible graphic marvels are possible.
In the sprite-based world of CIV2, we use what techniques we have at hand.

And it just so happens that the nemo style works best.

That is not to say that the other types of graphics are not legitimate...

That is where ToT's 24-bit units are useful!

I urge patine to take a look at catfish's graphic workshop thread, before he writes off isometric units.

	02-01-2004 00:44									#7
	Inflate your Upload Space

Yeah, he is good with vehicles, but the Civ2 engine also has an advantage in that it is easier to create graphics. I have managed to edit aprox 40 ships form only about 14 originals for my as of yet unnamed scenario, and if yu read my posts, you know I am an idiot and a noob.

	02-01-2004 00:49									#8
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To kind Curt, to kind. I am only an amateur. Many others out there, such as Fairline, Catfish, and yourself, are the ones who have kept Civ2 alive.

Hi-res does have a place in Civ2, as such designers as Kobiyashi have shown. Also, there are many designers out there who do not use Nemo style specifically. Rather they use the 2d model style for their units creation, which is in and of itself very stylish and crisp. Colonies IV, which has become a favorite of mine, is not Nemo persay, but goes the route of pseudo hi-res, historically accurate units.

Nemo style is a favorite of many creators because of the simple fact that it is easier to create units from scratch using that method. They look accurate, colorful, and can be easily distinguished.

Quite frankly, for a scenario, I don't have a preference, as long as the designer has made the effort in creating an environment that suits the scenario.

Overall, effort is appreciated in the realm of Civ2. Style points are best left up to the critics.

	02-01-2004 00:55									#9
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Patine:
You are not the only one
I also think that the nemo-style tanks and planes look cartoonish.

Of course, as Harry Tuttle said:
"Hi-Res graphics try to be realistic, but with the limited colors of Civ2 they seem blurry. Also, hi-res is usually not completely isometric which makes identifying the units harder and creates a a unit set without uniform units."

I suggest you to accept it, and deal with it, ok?
If you take a look at my scenarios, you´ll see a mixture of nemo-style and hi-res (photo-realistic)
You have to learn to appreciate the best of the two worlds

Believe me, there are excellent nemo-style units
In due course, you´ll also enjoy those graphics.


However, if you still want to take a look at the "other option", just contact me. i have plenty of "hi-res" modern units

	02-01-2004 01:14									#10
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My last word in this mini-debate:

There is room for all styles in the community.

I can salute Fairline or Kobiyashi (and everyone else)

For anyone who makes units graphics, be they Nemo-style or Hi-res, are doing the community a service.

Every new unit breathes some new life into CIV2...

Be happy, it's the new year!

	02-01-2004 01:52									#11
	Put an end to popups!

I'm glad to see that we can discuss this topic peacefully, since this has been a very touchy subject earlier. I couldn't stand nemo-units myself until I saw the maginicent work of Fairline. He made the nemo units look marvellous!

My scenarios also has high-res units, or at least I consider them a fair compromise between nemo and high res. You'll find many of them in my sig.

Happy new year everybody! May 2004 be the year were civ2 has its golden age!

	02-01-2004 02:05									#12
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The main point for me is, I often can't recognise Hi res graphics for what they are.

	02-01-2004 03:59									#13
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by GoPostal The main point for me is, I often can't recognise Hi res graphics for what they are.

I agree with this one, and another thing, they fit more into the rest of the graphic elements of the game (terrains etc).

	02-01-2004 05:29									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Didn't we have this argument at Civ Fanatics some time ago? Despite my partisan involvement in that silly little tussle, I came to the conclusion that there are excellent units produced both in isometric form and scanned and photo-reduced. For the best examples of the latter, see the work of Hardjoy and Catfish, and Eivind has produced a nice hybrid of the two styles.

As with most things, it's a matter of personal taste. As Curt says, if you want to redress the 'Nemo' versus 'photo-realistic' unit imbalance, then feel free to have a go yourself. Catfish gives a good 'how-to' guide in the graphics workshop thread.

Happy New Year to all!

	02-01-2004 06:17									#15
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They may look cartoonish, but at least you can tell wether that's a tank or a bug you swotted against the screen.

	02-01-2004 11:19									#16
	Put an end to popups!

Hi-Res graphics are plain ugly. I think that the nemo/fairline/danny/curt/tuttle graphics series works well with the game, because...well...the original game was more nemo-y than hi-res. and they shouldn't be called "hi-res" because they aren't....they're black and brown blobs.

	02-01-2004 13:08									#17
	Got spare money?

My apologies for such a harsh condemnation. I haven't yet viewed a full scenario by Fairline, Catfish, Tuttle or a few others mentioned, just several galleries and a few scenarios such as "22-something Days of War" (forgive me for not remembering the exact scenario title). I use mostly high-res graphics myself, but would like to be refered to some good examples of scenarios using Nemo-esque graphics. If someone (especially the authors) could direct me, I might see some examples of the style I like.

	02-01-2004 14:16									#18
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Dude, no-one is going to run you over for having an opinion.

It's healthy to make your voice heard.

Anyhoo,
Check out the threads going back a few weeks here.
There are some great scens on this forum section,

Or perhaps the CDG civ2 section might have some that interest you...

http://cdgroup.org/forums/tbs/civ2/

Don't forget the check out the new scens at Spanish Civ site too!

http://spanish.apolyton.net/

	02-01-2004 19:46									#19
	Get a bigger avatar today!

some ugly unrecognizable black and brown blobs.

Last edited by kobayashi on 02-01-2004 at 19:55

	02-01-2004 20:16									#20
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Hoom.

As I said earlier:
These units are every bit as legitimate as Nemo style.

It's all a matter of taste.

I like all units, in their proper context.

I do prefer Nemo style as these are fitting for most of the standard CIV2 terrains and support graphics.

But! (and it is significant) Due to it's graphical unity, a Hi-res scenario such as...hmmm...ZWK looks completely fab too.

	02-01-2004 21:21									#21
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Kobayashi, they are nice, but frankly, I couldn't tell your churchill from a cromwell. By accentuating proportion in Nemo style, they are easily recognisable.

	02-01-2004 23:46									#22
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Art of War the original game was more nemo-y than hi-res. and they shouldn't be called "hi-res" because they aren't....

They are called HiRes because they were recently (*cough*oldfart*cough*) repopularized by the HiRes Modpack.

Naturally, photo reductions long predate this. I know that a lot of the scenarios on the Rocky Mountain Civ2 Site used them and that was back in 96/97.

The thing about cartoonish graphics is that they have improved several magnitudes since the release of the game. People have figured out gradients, shadows, proportions, etc. The problems of palette and perspective that turn me off from photo reductions are largely the same as in the past.

Of course, photo reductions from pictures of models or paintings tend to work quite well.

	03-01-2004 03:11									#23
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the terrain below the units matters infinitely as much
i have seen many a scenario with dark, greyish grasslands accompanied by similar looking tanks
also the (in my opinion) quite unnessasary recoloring of the ocean tiles
but what is important is the contrast between units and terrain, and three cheers to those who get it right

	03-01-2004 03:11									#24
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the terrain below the units matters infinitely as much
i have seen many a scenario with dark, greyish grasslands accompanied by similar looking tanks
also the (in my opinion) quite unnessasary recoloring of the ocean tiles
but what is important is the contrast between units and terrain, and three cheers to those who get it right

	04-01-2004 11:36									#25
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Hi-res, when well done, can be quite cool. Many, however, are not well done and can be very inconsistent and even ugly.

The advantage of Nemo-style is in the consistency of perpective, if not scale. They look like you're viewing them from above, and from the same angle. And the latest generation have far surpassed the "cartoonish" look of the original Nemo units. They are very detailed - well shaded, camoflaged and riveted. First rate art!

	04-01-2004 22:40									#26
	Suffering from ads?

Civ2 is inherently cartoonish, ever see water that blue in real life?

That said, why not turn that into a strength and make an intentionally cartoonish graphics mod?

	05-01-2004 02:02									#27
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Smiley!

I'd love to see more of your building-terrain!

They are one of the best mod-making graphic resources EVER!

	06-01-2004 01:08									#28
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Hi-Res isn't the only alternative to Nemo-esque art.

	06-01-2004 03:08									#29
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And that other alternative is?

Don't keep us in suspense!

	06-01-2004 05:23									#30
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quote: Originally posted by curtsibling And that other alternative is? Don't keep us in suspense!

I think I can answer that one: Oobir-tastic units!

This one by Mr Oobir was a mutant space pig I think. My favourite by him was a mutant space toaster, or something like that. Can't find the bugger though. Are you still out there Mr Oobir?