02-01-2004 18:14									#1
	Scenarios from the Community: Herbstnebel 2.0 Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

This scenario, created by DarthVeda, was released on december 18th and is still advertised on the front page of ACS.
Of course, this induced me to play it.
First a few turns to get acquainted: beautiful graphics and many goodlooking and powerful units. Still, I didn't enjoy it because I felt guided as il I were on rails by a very rich events file (at least I suppose so).
This induced me to play without following the direct path that was offered to me, and then the game became very interesting to play.
I finally achieved decisive victory on the 22nd of december at 9AM, after several hours of great fun.
I give some details hereunder, but I warn you: that post is a spoiler, so please refrain from reading it if you plan to play the scenario .

	02-01-2004 21:26									#2
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Attention please !
Don't read this post if you intend to play the scenario (since I give some details that may help you ... and therefore remove part of the fun ).

Winning a scenario usually requires to know where the objectives are (reconnoitring), then find a way to get there with strong units (logistics), then win the battle (combat calculation).

1) Reconnoitring:
I used 3 main units:
- Kubelwagen (7 moves, which means 21 moves along roads, sees 2, ignores ZOC)
- Fallschirmjäger (ignores walls, ZOC and roads, 7 moves)
- He 111 bomber (though I didn't bomb anything at all ): 20 moves during daytime, but 38 moves at night

2) Logistics:
There are no RRs at all and the road network is very tricky (shorter path from one point to another is almost never a straight line) + anytime you take a city, American troops establish a roadblock and sometimes also destroy the road.
Some roadblocks really block the road and need to be destroyed ASAP. Others block the road only with help of their ZOC and you can use a kubelwagen to help your stronger units drive on.

3) Combat:
The main problem to solve is that you know very precisely what are the characteristics of German units, but almost nothing about the American units ( which is in fact quite realistic IMO ).
I chose not to do any extensive testing (lengthy and costly) and to rely upon the idea that the German panzers probably ruled in open field (and this generally proved to be true, apart from the American 155mm howitzer which proved to be very dangerous when attacking).
The main problem was therefore taking cities, since all of them were protected by anti-tank defenses (equivalent to city walls) and you could easily experience the nasty surprise of losing a strong panzer against a supposedly weak infantry unit .
What I did was checking carefully the list of military units and almost only attack with 'ignores city walls' units.

4) Bunkers
Special feature in this scenario: bunkers are untakable.
The worst is when there is a bunker inside a city, since the city then becomes untakable (at least until you have been lucky enough to take a city where the bunker belongs to). I found no miracle solution and was compelled to use kubelwagen to help the panzers circle around those cities.

5) 'Strategy'
What I know of the German winter offensive in the Ardennes induced me to guess that I was almost certain to face numerous American reinforcements.
Blitzkrieg required.
I decided not to follow the roads offered by the designer, but to try and get close to Bastogne and Saint-Vith ASAP with strong units. It worked with Saint-Vith and I was able to take the city (almost) only defended by infantry. In Bastogne, I took one district, but the other 2 were defended by bunkers and therefore untakable (they remained so quite a while and there was endless streetfighting meanwhile).
From then on, the main problem was efficient scouting and careful selection of objective cities (in order not to lose time and strength conquering useless allied cities).

	02-01-2004 21:46									#3
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This must be mentioned, since it is probably the biggest mistake I made while playing this scenario.
There are fuel reserves only inside very few cities where your mechanized units belong, and you may come to a situation of fuel shortage.
I said to myself: "no problem, this is blitzkrieg, we shall overcome before shortages become annoying", but then I got a message telling me that a Tiger2 (my strongest unit ) had been removed from the battlefield.
I felt compelled to disband several weaker mechanized units in order to be able to keep my stronger panzers active .

	02-01-2004 21:58									#4
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For those interested, here is the final save, after conquering the 40th objective city.

Attachment: dec1944.sav
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

	06-01-2004 13:36									#5
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Nice job on finishing Herbstnebel quickly and without much help from the events files.

I ran into a similar situation with Captain Nemo's SECOND FRONT scenario, a scenario is so heavily event driven that the author actually warns that " The Allied High Command will not accept a high degree of deviation from the Operational plan they have laid out and you might soon find yourself fighting alone in Normandy...". Unlike you, I could not see a way around this, so I quit in utter frustration after 20 turns (D-day + 9). I was in a straitjacket because the scenario wanted me to play like Mongomery when my instincts were to play like Patton.!!!!

On D+9:
Allied forces had St Lo surrounded but events did not want it taken earlier than D+37.
Cherbourg and Cherbourg AFB were surrounded but not to be taken before D+18 and D+26, respectively.
The Allies had taken Vire, ~100 km south of St Lo, as well as Barenton, thereby cutting off enemy forces in Brittany and western Normandy. The Allied forces were spreading out but were not supposed to attack nearby Mortain until D+58.
A task force was within 2 days of capturing a Seine crossing at Quillebeau.
The huge backlog of Allied units in Britain had been more or less cleared

At this point I quit. Obviously the scenario and I were having a serious personality clash.

On the one hand, I believed Nemo's warning about not getting out of synch with events and figured that I was going to need all the unit and other help I could get from events. Already, the German Panthers and Tigers around Caen were being held at bay mainly by the Air Force, not by the ground forces which simply could not handle the German tanks.

On the other hand, the idea of having to follow history's timetable and play "stupid" had little appeal. I had no wish to leave significant forces behind to contain and eventually capture more and more surrounded cities when the forces were needed for further advances. Also, the longer it took to capture the cities, the more difficult it would be because reinforcements would keep on arriving. It was Catch 22 and it just didn't make sense so I went on to another scenario.

This is not meant in any way to reflect on the concept and technical quality of SECOND FRONT. Both are superb. The historical accuracy is as good as can be modelled in CIV II, the map is incredibly detailed and the units excellently rendered. The failing was mine in not having the patience to play it at the historically correct pace.

Last edited by AGRICOLA on 02-02-2004 at 02:46

	06-01-2004 13:58									#6
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If I understand you, you opened the events file on D+9 after you had decided to quit. Is that what happened?

I have never opened an events file in my life yet, because what I love with scenarios is the pleasure to have nasty surprises and fight them victoriously.

Anyway, I am busy finishing 'Spanish pride', but you make me wish to have a try at 'Normandy' right after that.

	06-01-2004 15:44									#7
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Much kudos to the Master ...

Just a query: just how are "bunkers untakable"? by which I mean how is this achieved in Civ terms - if they are units with no attack or movement, but high defence could they be suseptible to the 'Partisan bonus' and vulnerable to some otherwise second or third rate unit?

Stu

	06-01-2004 16:52									#8
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You're correct.

There is an opening message for each event period, generally 5-10 days, that lists the objectives for that period. I was sitting around Cherbourg, St Lo and Mortain and these major objectives were not listed while targets a long way behind the advanced units were on the list. I assumed, correctly as it turned out, that these cities would eventually become objectives but I was not prepared to docilely sit and wait until events gave me the go-ahead to take them.

SECOND FRONT is a beautiful scenario. I think you will enjoy playing it. I did find one somewhat incongruous feature in it. In June 1944, Normandy was probably the most thoroughly photographed and mapped area on earth, yet neither the Allied ground forces nor their air force seem to have managed to get their hands on a map.

Last edited by AGRICOLA on 02-02-2004 at 02:49

	06-01-2004 18:00									#9
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quote: Originally posted by AGRICOLA In June 1944, Normandy was probably the most thoroughly photographed and mapped area on earth, yet neither the Allied ground forces nor their air force seem to have managed to get their hands on a map.

What I can tell you is that I lived there (in Caen) between june 1945 and june 1948, and so much had been destroyed that no map was true.

	06-01-2004 18:09									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits just how are "bunkers untakable"? by which I mean how is this achieved in Civ terms - if they are units with no attack or movement, but high defence could they be suseptible to the 'Partisan bonus' and vulnerable to some otherwise second or third rate unit? Stu

Thank you for the kudos.

- I think that the author gave the bunkers a very high defense value.
- I don't know what the 'Partisan bonus' is.
- The AI destroyed a bunker after 3-4 attacks, but I didn't try to do the same (since low casualties are very often the shortest way to getting stronger than the AI).

	06-01-2004 21:56									#11
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Without checking in the GL Combat Thread - IIRC units in the 'partisan' slot get an enormous (25x??) advantage attacking units with (again IIRC) zero attack factor - in normal Civ this means Settlers, Engineers, Dips & Spies - none of which are renowned for their defence in any case - but it does give an interesting opening for Scenarios Builders - this is what I meant by Partisan bonus -- so perhaps a lowly flamethrower or such could be highly destructive against a bunker ???

Stu

	07-01-2004 01:17									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits - IIRC units in the 'partisan' slot get an enormous (25x??) advantage attacking units with (again IIRC) zero attack factor so perhaps a lowly flamethrower or such could be highly destructive against a bunker ??? Stu

I suppose so, but I am not sure I wish to test:

We have tested so much about civ2 that the people who play with helper programs can predict almost anything.
Personally I enjoy the amount of unknown that I have in front of me when playing a scenario. The freedom of the author is the origin of the fun I get when playing.

I guess I would change my mind only if I were in front of a scenario that I don't manage to win. Luckily this didn't happen yet

	07-01-2004 15:10									#13
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It would definitely be possible to have a saboteurs unit with the partisan flag, so that research would allow the attackers to disable enemy bunkers, but it would also be necessary to remove (or reorder) the techs that produce partisans outside captured cities.

	07-01-2004 21:08									#14
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The author has designed a nice way to destroy bunkers: each bunker is related to a city, and, when you take the city, the bunker disappears.
(the problem is that the attacker does not know which bunker is related to which city )

	08-01-2004 04:29									#15
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Where can I download the 'Normandy' scenario ?

	10-01-2004 10:39									#16
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My sincere apologies for any fruitless search I may have cause you. I really screwed up, the scenario is SECOND FRONT not NORMANDY. I had used the shorter term on the folder it was in. Sorry for the mental lapse. The scenario is in the Apolyton scenario archives.

My comment that neither the Allies nor their Air Force had manged to get their hands on a map was an oblique reference to most of Normandy being "blacked out" in Second Front, much like the situation in Herbstnebel.

Neither "blackout" strikes me as very realistic. In Normandy, arial photography and extensive ground truth provided by the French resistance surely were combined into excellent maps for the Allied forces, while in the Ardennes the Germans had already traversed much of the map area in 1940 on their way to the Meuse.

	22-01-2004 22:00									#17
	Second Front Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I have been more patient than AGRICOLA, but I completely agree with him: this scenario is beautiful, with a very detailed map and well designed units, but...the author has been so eager to make it follow History that the events file is much more powerful than the few degrees of freedom left to the player.

I felt like a schoolboy waiting for the teacher to allow this and that (somewhat alike when playing Spartacus a few weeks ago) and it became really boring after a while.

I was compelled to play 'Hotseat', which makes for a very difficult game since you don't see enemy moves and lose your units without knowing where the blow came from.

I tried a supposedly clever strategical move, namely taking the Luftwaffe's AFB of Carpiquet very early, but the AFB disappeared and became a village

I finally stopped after having taken Caen (that I wished to take, because I lived there when I was a schoolboy) on turn 35.

To make it short, I think that playing D-day is great, but after that one needs to be either very patient or able to find strategical moves that are strong enough to beat the powerful events file.

	23-01-2004 12:17									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Without checking in the GL Combat Thread - IIRC units in the 'partisan' slot get an enormous (25x??) advantage attacking units with (again IIRC) zero attack factor -

If my memory isn't playing tricks, I think the bonus is rather x4 (or even x3??)! Very useful in Red Front to attack Blockades (whatever their name is in the scen) with partisans!

	23-01-2004 17:07									#19
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@Cyrion

I believe the terms you want are Hedgehogs (German) or Fortified Batteries (all Swedish cities have one).

In the original Red Front (RF 1.4), most of the time a single partisan is more than a match for a Hedgehog. However five or six are required to wipe a FB.

Alas, in his much more difficult version of Red Front (RF 1.5), Colwyn has removed the special abilities so partisans have about as much effect on Hedgehogs and FB's as throwing rotten apples at them.



@La Fayette

Very eloquent summary of your frustrations with Second Front. I truly sympathize with your feeligs and admire your patience.

I hate to be the one who extinguishes the small spark of hope at the end your post that a player is:

quote: able to find strategical moves that are strong enough to beat the powerful events file.

I looked in the notes I usually keep when I first play a scenario. Here's a quote from the notes that pretty well seems to eliminate any significant alternate strategy:

"The only half decent Allied units are aircraft, Heavy Artillery, 105mm Howitzers, M-10 Tank Destroyers and the specialists, Bazookas and Combat Engineers. The rest are cannon fodder. Unfortunately, one can actively build only fighter planes and Heavy Artillery, the other 'good' units appear at the whim of events. "

I think that the inabilty to select what types of equipment are taken from the vast reserves in England and issued to the troops kills all ideas for a better strategy. Your hands are tied.

You fight with what you're given and what you're given isn't what you would build. Oh well.