03-01-2004 01:46									#31
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Sava why do people think this is a good stat? this just means you sucked for the first 3 quarters and couldn't get it done. 4th quarter comebacks, especially against bad teams, just illustrate an inability to dominate the entire game.

its one of the most prized qb stats there is. I'm not sure what ur problem is besides a deep loathing of manning? would u hate on montana's comebacks? cuz montana had a team about 5x as good as mannings. before free agency.

	03-01-2004 01:49									#32
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: its one of the most prized qb stats there is

for dumbasses

quote: It shows he ain't a choke artist.

that stat has nothing to do with "choking"... if anything, it shows that the team DID choke in the first 3 quarters.

btw yavoon, when Manning wins several Super Bowls, then you can compare him to Montana.

	03-01-2004 01:49									#33
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Brady came in third in the MVP vote, led his team to the best record in football, and did not make the Pro Bowl!

That is absurd.

However, I agree that both Manning and McNair have been the most valuable players this year in the NFL.

	03-01-2004 01:51									#34
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Ned:

the nfl writers were wrong... but they were right? what?

	03-01-2004 01:52									#35
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Sava for dumbasses that stat has nothing to do with "choking"... if anything, it shows that the team DID choke in the first 3 quarters. btw yavoon, when Manning wins several Super Bowls, then you can compare him to Montana.

4th quarter comebacks is a stat for dumbasses? why not castrate ur football intelligence more?

and I'm notcomparing him to montana. if u had comprehension skills u would see that I was asking if u'd hate on montana's comebacks as well. cuz that means montana choked for the first 3 quarters.

	03-01-2004 01:54									#36
	Support Apolyton

I think some people need to chill in this thread... or I'll chill you.

	03-01-2004 01:58									#37
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

yavoon:
1. in terms of 4th quarter comebacks... I didn't specify that Manning was a choker because of that stat. That stat isn't an individual stat. It applies to the entire offense. I don't know why you pulled this Montana crap out of your ass.

2. My main point was that it is a deceiving stat. Sure, it means a team can come back when they are down. but IT ALSO MEANS THEY ****ED UP AND FELL BEHIND IN THE FIRST PLACE.

You know what other stats the "NFL writers" prize?

"When a team scores 20 points their record is *-*"

That is another dumbass stat. That's like saying, "when priest holmes scores 50 touchdowns in a game, the CHIEFS are undefeated!" OMG they PWN U!



There are loads of stats in sports. It's important to pay attention to the stats that ARE IMPORTANT... and to ignore the ones that are deceptive, or lead to "false-cause" conclusions.

get a clue

btw xpost ming

	03-01-2004 02:01									#38
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Sava yavoon: 1. in terms of 4th quarter comebacks... I didn't specify that Manning was a choker because of that stat. That stat isn't an individual stat. It applies to the entire offense. I don't know why you pulled this Montana crap out of your ass. 2. My main point was that it is a deceiving stat. Sure, it means a team can come back when they are down. but IT ALSO MEANS THEY ****ED UP AND FELL BEHIND IN THE FIRST PLACE. You know what other stats the "NFL writers" prize? "When a team scores 20 points their record is *-*" That is another dumbass stat. That's like saying, "when priest holmes scores 50 touchdowns in a game, the CHIEFS are undefeated!" OMG they PWN U! There are loads of stats in sports. It's important to pay attention to the stats that ARE IMPORTANT... and the ones that are deceptive, or lead to "false-cause" conclusions. get a clue btw xpost ming

passing and rushing yards are a team stat too. everything is a team stat. its a team game. so ur first point is extra irrelevant.

as for ur second point. no1 wins every game. no1. some games ur gna be ahead, some ur gna be behind. if u have a qb who is deadly enuff to take a game u should lose and make it a game u win. that is an enormous advantage to posess.


yah so basically u know very little. sorry.

	03-01-2004 02:03									#39
	Suffering from ads?

yavoon... my warning was meant for you as well...

	03-01-2004 02:10									#40
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: passing and rushing yards are a team stat too

Does the whole team pass the ball for the Quarterback? Does the whole team carry the ball and runfor the Running Back?



anyways, I'm not going to waste any more energy on you... I'll debate people with intelligent arguments. Now I remember why you're on my ignore list.

Here's another great stat that people should pay attention to.

WHEN A TEAM SCORES MORE TEAM THAN THEIR OPPONENTS, THEY ARE UNDEFEATED! OMFG pWNED!

so Ming... how would you rank MVP choices?

mine are
1. McNair
2. Brady
3. Holmes
4. J.Lewis
5. Manning

	03-01-2004 02:12									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Sava Does the whole team pass the ball for the Quarterback? Does the whole team carry the ball and runfor the Running Back? anyways, I'm not going to waste any more energy on you... I'll debate people with intelligent arguments. Now I remember why you're on my ignore list. Here's another great stat that people should pay attention to. WHEN A TEAM SCORES MORE TEAM THAN THEIR OPPONENTS, THEY ARE UNDEFEATED! OMFG pWNED! so Ming... how would you rank MVP choices? mine are 1. McNair 2. Brady 3. Holmes 4. J.Lewis 5. Manning

who runs the routes? who pass blocks? who run blocks?

its a team game. ur inability to understand this is comical.

the only person this zealous about a sport who knows so little must be from chicago.

	03-01-2004 02:16									#42
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

1. Lewis... an incredible season without much help at QB down the stretch. 2000 yards is impressive.

2. McNair... yeah, they could win with Back ups... but he played injured and did all the things the team needed to win. He was a brilliant field general and a great leader.

3. Manning... great stats, and he won games. There were many times when the game rested on his shoulders, and he delivered.

4. Brady... but just a notch below Manning. Like Imran, I give a lot of credit to the Defense...

5. Priest Holmes... what a touchdown machine. One of the best backs of all time.

As you can see... I think RB's should get more credit than they usually get in the voting.

	03-01-2004 02:16									#43
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by yavoon why so much hate for manning? I dislike him sure. but he's a hugely valuable part to any game the colts win. and have won in years past. where is the achilles heel? he's durable, he can score fast or control the clock. he's accurate and intelligent. he has a very high work ethic and is team oriented. he puts up ungodly #'s(read better than neone at the qb position ever). and this year he has lead numerable 4th quarter comebacks.

I don't "hate" anybody in the NFL. I just think there were a lot of good stories and performances this year, and Manning's performance wasn't the big one. Dungy is far more responsible for that teams success, IMO.

And durable? The only reason he's durable is that he's a wuss who never leaves the pocket. Brett favre is durable, McNair is durable....

	03-01-2004 02:17									#44
	Increase Your PM Length

ha ha! I can't see what you are saying!

anyone notice all the MVP candidates were from the AFC? and they are all offensive players except for Ray Lewis with a stellar 2 votes?

Why is that? I mean, everyone always says defense wins games, but how come the MVPS are usually offensive players? Wouldn't it be the defensive leader of a team?

I like to think of the MVP like this.... it should be the player, that if injured, would hurt the team the most... but that can be deceptive too since a team's depth would come into question.

	03-01-2004 02:17									#45
	Remove this text

What part of my warnings are you guys not UNDERSTANDING.

The next personal comment out of either of you, and you're toast.

	03-01-2004 02:18									#46
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Sava, I think Brady is right to be listed third in the MVP voting. However, he should also have made the Pro Bowl. Trent Green, not Brady, is the third AFC QB behind Manning and McNair.

	03-01-2004 02:20									#47
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Ming 1. Lewis... an incredible season without much help at QB down the stretch. 2000 yards is impressive. 2. McNair... yeah, they could win with Back ups... but he played injured and did all the things the team needed to win. He was a brilliant field general and a great leader. 3. Manning... great stats, and he won games. There were many times when the game rested on his shoulders, and he delivered. 4. Brady... but just a notch below Manning. Like Imran, I give a lot of credit to the Defense... 5. Priest Holmes... what a touchdown machine. One of the best backs of all time. As you can see... I think RB's should get more credit than they usually get in the voting.

but look at Tomlinsin... he had an amazing year... AFC receptions leader as well as great rushing totals.

Also Ming, last year, the top 4 RB's were on teams that didn't make the playoffs.

Hey, anyone know who the other AFC QB pro-bowl selection was... it eludes me. McNair, Mannign... and.... blah.. nothing... it should have been Brady, however.

	03-01-2004 02:21									#48
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Ned Sava, I think Brady is right to be listed third in the MVP voting. However, he should also have made the Pro Bowl. Trent Green, not Brady, is the third AFC QB behind Manning and McNair.

Green! that's it... thank you Ned.

	03-01-2004 02:26									#49
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Sava ha ha! I can't see what you are saying! anyone notice all the MVP candidates were from the AFC? and they are all offensive players except for Ray Lewis with a stellar 2 votes? Why is that? I mean, everyone always says defense wins games, but how come the MVPS are usually offensive players? Wouldn't it be the defensive leader of a team? I like to think of the MVP like this.... it should be the player, that if injured, would hurt the team the most... but that can be deceptive too since a team's depth would come into question.

the mvp's are rb's and qb's because they touch the ball the most. so it is more common for them to have a larger impact on the outcome.

	03-01-2004 02:27									#50
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Does the whole team pass the ball for the Quarterback? Does the whole team carry the ball and runfor the Running Back?

Someone has to pass block and run block. Someone has to catch the passes thrown. So yav is not too far off the mark saying passing and rushing are part of team stats as well.

My Top 5:

1) McNair
2) Manning
3) J. Lewis
4) S. Davis (yes an NFC player )
5) A. Green (another NFC... ack!)

I would have put Portis and/or Holmes there, but credit must be given to their AMAZING offensive-lines. Same goes for Brady.

	03-01-2004 02:29									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Jac de Molay I don't "hate" anybody in the NFL. I just think there were a lot of good stories and performances this year, and Manning's performance wasn't the big one. Dungy is far more responsible for that teams success, IMO. And durable? The only reason he's durable is that he's a wuss who never leaves the pocket. Brett favre is durable, McNair is durable....

lotsa pocket qb's get hurt. warner is an easy example, but there are of course lots more.

if u can start as many as manning has in a row. ur doing something right. pocket or mobile.

	03-01-2004 02:29									#52
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Sava Also Ming, last year, the top 4 RB's were on teams that didn't make the playoffs.

True enough... but this year, Baltimore would not have made the playoffs without Lewis, and he had a great year.
And Holmes also carried the load... but at least he had Trent Green running the offense. But Holmes racked up the touchdowns as well...

	03-01-2004 02:31									#53
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: The only reason he's durable is that he's a wuss who never leaves the pocket.

What a silly statement! The immoble QBs are the ones that get hurt more.

	03-01-2004 02:39									#54
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I would have liked to see Green or Favre up there. Without them two Green Bay would have never even been close to the playoffs let alone win the a Division title

	03-01-2004 02:41									#55
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Yeah...I forgot about Farve.. a classic example of what MVP stands for. But they still have to thank Arizona for their playoff spot. Oh, and a special thanks to Minny as well...

	03-01-2004 02:49									#56
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Ming Yeah...I forgot about Farve.. a classic example of what MVP stands for. But they still have to thank Arizona for their playoff spot. Oh, and a special thanks to Minny as well...

They do have to thank Arizona for a lucky TD and Minny for sucking however, GB would not have made it even to these games if they hadn't been undefeated in all of December and won 7 of their last 9 games.

	03-01-2004 10:51									#57
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

When a network runs the 50st toughest regular season losses, #1 will be Minneapolis vs. Arizona. I mean, how unlucky can you get? Minutes away from a playoff berth, they gave up a touchdown, onside kick, wacky pass interference penalty, then a pseudo-Hail Mary on the final play ... and they lost to a team with a rookie QB and a lame-duck coach, a team that was one more incompletion away from drafting first in April. And it was a carp call to boot -- really, does anyone think Poole would have gotten that second foot in?

Combine it with Minnesota play-off losses and the amount of stomach punches they've had in the last 30 years, the next time people look at the Cubs and Red Sox for curses should look first at Minnesota

	03-01-2004 10:52									#58
	Support Apolyton

quote: And durable? The only reason he's durable is that he's a wuss who never leaves the pocket. Brett favre is durable, McNair is durable....

McNair is now less of a threat than he was with his running attack. He is more of a pocket passer now.

	03-01-2004 11:02									#59
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

My MVP rankings are:

#1: Manning: I'm a Colts fan. Sue me. But, yet another 4000+ yrd season, with that incredible comeback vs. Tampa Bay. (I mean, come on. 3 scoring drives in 4 minutes, not to mention the last 4 minutes is incredible).

#2: Jamal Lewis: Who didn't want him to get the record? I mean, 2000+ yards in 16 games, 500 of which against the Browns. On the subject, why did the Ravens rush him 27 times against a defence who packed the line all night, surely the Super Bowl is more important?

#3: Steve McNair: No comment.

#4: Tom Brady: Their D carried the team this year, and with all the people saying "He didn't have a 1000+ yard rusher" etc, remember that the Patriots use running back by committee. The Eagles are an effective running team, but they don't have a 1000+ yard rusher But, by and large, he had a decent year, but his stats were pale in the face of the three above.

Honourable mentions: Brett Favre (if only for the game vs. Oakland), Ray Lewis, Priest Holmes, and, dare I say it, John Kitna???

	03-01-2004 11:10									#60
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Froz, don't forget to thank me for backing Manning in this thread . You know, after I was saying how McNair deserves the award over Manning a few weeks back and all (and I still believe it ).