02-01-2004 22:13									#1
	NFL: Manning & McNair win CO-MVP Put an end to popups!

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=1698744

quote: Star quarterbacks Peyton Manning and Steve McNair reached the individual pinnacle of the NFL on Friday when they shared The Associated Press NFL Most Valuable Player award. In just the third tie since the award began in 1957, the premier passers each received 16 votes from a nationwide panel of 50 sports writers and broadcasters who cover the NFL. Manning and McNair led their teams to 12-4 records, with Manning's Indianapolis Colts edging McNair's Tennessee Titans for the AFC South crown by winning both games against the Titans. "This is such a tremendous honor," Manning said. "Obviously you look at all the former winners, it really is an honor to be on that same list, and to have such great teammates and a coaching staff that allowed me to go out and make plays. "And to be sharing it with Steve, a player I have the most respect for and who has had a tremendous year ..." Added McNair: "It is great, my words can't express how I feel being co-MVP with another great quarterback like Peyton. It's very emotional right now for me that people look at me as being one of the top quarterbacks of the NFL, one of the top players, and a co-MVP." New England quarterback Tom Brady finished third with eight votes, followed by Baltimore running back Jamal Lewis, the AP Offensive Player of the Year, with five. Kansas City running back Priest Holmes got three votes, and Baltimore linebacker Ray Lewis, the AP Defensive Player of the Year, received two. Unlike the seemingly indestructible Manning, who's never missed a start in his six pro seasons, McNair has played hurt for much of his career. This season, he missed the last month of practice with a strained right calf and sprained left ankle that also has a cracked bone spur. Those injuries also sidelined him for two games. But the NFL has learned how tough the nine-year veteran is. And how dangerous he is, even though McNair no longer is the running threat he was early in his career. Now, he is a superb pocket passer, accurate and strong-armed. His 100.4 rating in 2003 edged Manning's 99.0 atop the league rankings. McNair certainly is impressed by Manning's achievements, which include leading the league this season with 4,267 yards passing and topping the AFC with 29 TD passes. He has thrown 25 or more TD passes in each of the past six seasons -- the only player to accomplish the feat. "It's just his knowledge of the game," McNair said. "When Peyton came in, there were very few guys who came in and started, and Peyton did a good job learning from his mistakes his first year. He came back and had a magnificent career, a student of the game, extra film work, learning the game mentally." Manning and McNair make it three straight years a quarterback has been selected most valuable player. Oakland's Rich Gannon won last year and Kurt Warner was the 2001 MVP. The other ties came in 1997 (Brett Favre and Barry Sanders) and in 1960 (Norm Van Brocklin and Joe Schmidt). Other Colts chosen MVP were Gino Marchetti (1958); John Unitas (1964 and '67); Earl Morrall (1968); and Bert Jones (1976). No Titan has won the honor, But Oilers running back Earl Campbell won in 1979 when the franchise played in Houston.

NFL MVP voting
Player Votes
Peyton Manning 16
Steve McNair 16
Tom Brady 8
Jamal Lewis 5
Priest Holmes 3
Ray Lewis 2

A TIE! But I wonder... did Jamal Lewis have to run for 3000 yards to get into the Top 3?

	02-01-2004 22:13									#2
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Manning shouldn't be there...

	02-01-2004 22:14									#3
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Typical Peyton... he can never quite seem to win the big one, can he? Even when he wins, he loses.

	02-01-2004 22:15									#4
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Sava, Manning only has 4,267 yards and 29 TD passes... nope doesn't deserve to be there at all .

	02-01-2004 22:17									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Sava, Manning only has 4,267 yards and 29 TD passes... nope doesn't deserve to be there at all .

statistical achievements aren't a prerequisite of the award... Manning should be a finalist for offensive player of the year... but he's maybe 6th or 7th in MVP...

	02-01-2004 22:18									#6
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quote: statistical achievements aren't a prerequisite of the award...

It is definetly a major part of it. Value of a player does often depend on what the player does .

	02-01-2004 22:58									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Sava, Manning only has 4,267 yards and 29 TD passes... nope doesn't deserve to be there at all .

Let's talk about him getting his first playoff victory then well talk MVP. McNair should've gotten it himself. He singlehandedly will the Titans to win in most of their games.

	02-01-2004 22:59									#8
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quote: Let's talk about him getting his first playoff victory then well talk MVP.

IIRC, the MVP is REGULAR SEASON award!

	02-01-2004 23:09									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui IIRC, the MVP is REGULAR SEASON award!

Which goes to show how screwed up the criteria is for picking MVP .

I can't believe they picked a wuss like Manning, because he throws lots of pretty TD's, over Brady or McNair who took their respective teams on their shoulders

	02-01-2004 23:14									#10
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quote: Which goes to show how screwed up the criteria is for picking MVP

It's always been a regular season award in EVERY sport .

quote: I can't believe they picked a wuss like Manning, because he throws lots of pretty TD's, over Brady or McNair who took their respective teams on their shoulders

Brady is severly overrated. I'm sure if that team had Bledsoe back it'd be just as good. Brady has an 85.9 passer rating compared to Manning (99.0) and McNair (100.4) who are significantly better. Hell Kitna had an 87.5!

Who did Manning have aside from Harrison? James wasn't that great this year. It was Manning throwing all the time. If you don't think he took his team on his shoulders this year, then you haven't been paying attention.

	02-01-2004 23:43									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Brady is severly overrated.

Yeah, ok One super bowl ring already, and played his ass off all year despite, unlike the Colts, having NO offensive weapons.

quote: I'm sure if that team had Bledsoe back it'd be just as good. Brady has an 85.9 passer rating compared to Manning (99.0) and McNair (100.4) who are significantly better. Hell Kitna had an 87.5!

Explain to me exactly how some cryptic mathematical formula justifies the value of an individual player to his team and the league. Especially compared to Jamal Lewis, who set the single game record, and accounted for the bulk of his teams offense playing a more physical position. A QB's rating and stats is the worst rationale for determing a player's relative value, and this award just proved it to me.

quote: Who did Manning have aside from Harrison? James wasn't that great this year.

James wasn't that bad either. Unlike the other QB candidates, he at least had a 1000+ yard rusher.

quote: It was Manning throwing all the time. If you don't think he took his team on his shoulders this year, then you haven't been paying attention.

Pretty boys who throw pretty TDs do not an MVP make. McNair played hurt almost all year, had no running game and almost beat the Colts for the division title. Manning will crumple in the playoffs, as usual.

	03-01-2004 00:01									#12
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quote: Yeah, ok One super bowl ring already, and played his ass off all year despite, unlike the Colts, having NO offensive weapons.

Look at his stats. And it's the same thing as it was with McNabb, Brady getting credit for his defense's amazing play.

quote: Explain to me exactly how some cryptic mathematical formula justifies the value of an individual player to his team and the league.

So are you saying a player with bad stats can be the most valuable player? Please. Stats is one of the best ways to measure 'value'. After all, aren't yards and TDs valuable?

quote: Unlike the other QB candidates, he at least had a 1000+ yard rusher.

And the 19th best rushing team. In the end they were 3rd in total offense. So yeah, he had to do it himself. And btw, Eddie George also had 1000+ yards.

quote: Pretty boys who throw pretty TDs do not an MVP make.

I guess you'll be confiscating Montana, Elway, and Warner's MVP awards, eh?

I think McNair was the best, but saying Manning didn't deserve to be close is just stupidity.

	03-01-2004 00:36									#13
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quote: Look at his stats. And it's the same thing as it was with McNabb.

Stats shmatz. Looking at what Brady did this year, with as little as he had to work with, he's far more deserving of MVP than Manning.

quote: Brady getting credit for his defense's amazing play.

He was a first year QB in Super Bowl 2001. What do you expect? Dan Marino? As for the last two years, he's thrown for ~3700 yards each year. That's not chump change considering he has zero help on the offensive side of the ball.

quote: So are you saying a player with bad stats can be the most valuable player?

Uh....no I was saying that stats and QB rating is probably the worst way to assess a potential MVP candidate, and this award proves it. If anything, Dungy deserves the credit for their resurgence, not Manning.

quote: And the 19th best rushing team. In the end they were 3rd in total offense. So yeah, he had to do it himself. And btw, Eddie George also had 1000+ yards.

19th in rushing is not bad, still averaging 100+yards/game. Eddie George's just-over 1000 yd season, and only 5 tds, proves my point about reading into stats. He struggled all year, and the Titans got to the point where they were shuffling in Holcomb because of the ineffective ground game. The Colts had the better run game this year.

quote: guess you'll be confiscating Montana, Elway, and Warner's MVP awards, eh?

You gotta be kidding me... Manning doesn't deserve to even sniff their jocks. All of those QBs were the absolute epitome of toughness and grace under fire, qualities that Manning is completely devoid of, as his, ahem, playoff record suggests.

	03-01-2004 00:56									#14
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quote: Stats shmatz. Looking at what Brady did this year, with as little as he had to work with, he's far more deserving of MVP than Manning.

Bull. I'd give it to Trent Green before I'd let Brady even look at it.

quote: As for the last two years, he's thrown for ~3700 yards each year. That's not chump change considering he has zero help on the offensive side of the ball.

He obviously has an offensive line. And Troy Brown may have been injured this year, but Branch stepped in and did well.

quote: I was saying that stats and QB rating is probably the worst way to assess a potential MVP candidate

No, it is one of the better ways. A player with lights out stats deserves to be at least in consideration for the award. If not, then the award is a farce.

quote: 19th in rushing is not bad

Not bad? They are in the lower half of the league... and the team finished 3rd in total offense!

quote: The Colts had the better run game this year.

Not by that much.

quote: All of those QBs were the absolute epitome of toughness and grace under fire, qualities that Manning is completely devoid of, as his, ahem, playoff record suggests.

Toughness? Manning has yet to miss a SINGLE game. How do you like that for toughness?

As for playoff record, I never knew that Manning was in charge of the defense as well. I guess that means Marino couldn't sniff the jock of Warner? Elway before his Superbowl wins was a nobody? PLEASE!

	03-01-2004 00:56									#15
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Hmmm... that's why the award is handed out before the playoffs... Because the award has NOTHING TO DO WITH playoff records

I thought Manning looked pretty tough under fire when bringing his team back in the Tampa Bay game this year

	03-01-2004 01:06									#16
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manning is extraordinarily important to the colts success. I don't like him either. but realize mcnair's replacements WON. we can only speculate about mannings, but my guess is enormous tank.

and he's putting up just disgusting #'s. and is durable as **** at the position.

so lets recap. team leader, extremely durable, hall of fame numbers...

	03-01-2004 01:10									#17
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Stats shouldn't be a major part of the award... Andre Dawson won the NL MVP in 1987 because he had 49 homers... despite the fact that the Cubs were DEAD LAST.

As I read it, the MVP award is for "the player who has contributed most to his team's success". Success being a prerequisite. Manning's team had success, but compared to other players' importance to their respective teams, did Manning contribute most to his team's success? I don't believe he did.

And yes, I think Brady is more deserving of the award. New England has literally no offense without Brady. Yes, their defense is great and winning games... but without Brady at QB, New England's offense doesn't have enough to beat teams like INDIANAPOLIS for instance. Brady's offense outscored Manning's offense in the game. Such a matchup should factor into MVP decision making.

	03-01-2004 01:14									#18
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What I find interesting is how far Brady was behind the two co winners. I think most people are making excellent arguments on why Brady deserved it... but from looking at the final vote, he wasn't even close.

As with any "MVP" award, it is just a matter of opinion... but Brady deserved better than being a distant third.

	03-01-2004 01:15									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Stats shouldn't be a major part of the award... Andre Dawson won the NL MVP in 1987 because he had 49 homers... despite the fact that the Cubs were DEAD LAST. As I read it, the MVP award is for "the player who has contributed most to his team's success". Success being a prerequisite. Manning's team had success, but compared to other players' importance to their respective teams, did Manning contribute most to his team's success? I don't believe he did. And yes, I think Brady is more deserving of the award. New England has literally no offense without Brady. Yes, their defense is great and winning games... but without Brady at QB, New England's offense doesn't have enough to beat teams like INDIANAPOLIS for instance. Brady's offense outscored Manning's offense in the game. Such a matchup should factor into MVP decision making.

well he did bring them back from 24 down against the super bowl champs. he did pull out a win against texas last sunday on the last drive.

sure brady doesn't have marvin harrison. but he has a disgustingly potent defense that keeps getting him the ball back. same w/ mcnair. and its not like brady's offense scores as much as peytons does anyway.

u can bely stats all u want. and stats can miss the whole story. BUT THEY ARE NOT IRRELEVANT.

	03-01-2004 01:19									#20
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quote: but Brady deserved better than being a distant third.

In your opinion, maybe . I have him 4th in mine (behind Jamal Lewis as well).

Brady had almost the same exact stats last year but the D wasn't as good and they finished 9-7. With the D retooled they go 14-2. It's the D people!

	03-01-2004 01:23									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: but Brady deserved better than being a distant third. In your opinion, maybe . I have him 4th in mine (behind Jamal Lewis as well). Brady had almost the same exact stats last year but the D wasn't as good and they finished 9-7. With the D retooled they go 14-2. It's the D people!

yeah... it is just that... an opinion. But hmmmm... using your argument, maybe the New England D should have been voted the MVP

	03-01-2004 01:25									#22
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quote: But hmmmm... using your argument, maybe the New England D should have been voted the MVP

If you can vote for a unit as MVP, then damn straight . Though Baltimore's D may have an argument (as would any playoff team's D that had Anthony Wright at QB ).

	03-01-2004 01:27									#23
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Good point

	03-01-2004 01:28									#24
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using your ****ed reasoning Imran... Indianapolis would have sucked if Manning had a pourous offensive line... or shitty receivers...

	03-01-2004 01:32									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Hmmm... that's why the award is handed out before the playoffs... Because the award has NOTHING TO DO WITH playoff records

No, but it's odd that he's thrown those same stats year in and year out, but suddenly he's Mr MVP because Dungy put together a decent defense?

I think Lewis should've have gotten it, as any 2000 yd RB should be right at the top, but that's my humble opinion .

quote: No, it is one of the better ways. A player with lights out stats deserves to be at least in consideration for the award. If not, then the award is a farce.

Well, the award is already a farce, and Mannings selection proves it. I'll take a Tomlinson or Randy Moss before I take Manning, neither of which appeared to get consideration.

	03-01-2004 01:34									#26
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quote: Indianapolis would have sucked if Manning had a pourous offensive line... or shitty receivers...

Perhaps, perhaps not. Indy's line isn't the greatest out there. Inferior to New England's no doubt.

quote: No, but it's odd that he's thrown those same stats year in and year out, but suddenly he's Mr MVP because Dungy put together a decent defense?

He should have been in MVP consideration for the last few years. This guy is going to be a first-ballot HOFer when all is said and done.

quote: Well, the award is already a farce, and Mannings selection proves it.

It would have been a farce if Manning wasn't close to the top.

	03-01-2004 01:36									#27
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quote: It would have been a farce if Manning wasn't close to the top.

I agree... but at the very least Brady, Holmes, J.Lewis, and McNair should all be ahead of him.

	03-01-2004 01:36									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Jac de Molay No, but it's odd that he's thrown those same stats year in and year out, but suddenly he's Mr MVP because Dungy put together a decent defense? I think Lewis should've have gotten it, as any 2000 yd RB should be right at the top, but that's my humble opinion . Well, the award is already a farce, and Mannings selection proves it. I'll take a Tomlinson or Randy Moss before I take Manning, neither of which appeared to get consideration.

why so much hate for manning? I dislike him sure. but he's a hugely valuable part to any game the colts win. and have won in years past.

where is the achilles heel?

he's durable, he can score fast or control the clock. he's accurate and intelligent. he has a very high work ethic and is team oriented. he puts up ungodly #'s(read better than neone at the qb position ever). and this year he has lead numerable 4th quarter comebacks.

	03-01-2004 01:41									#29
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quote: and this year he has lead numerable 4th quarter comebacks.

why do people think this is a good stat? this just means you sucked for the first 3 quarters and couldn't get it done. 4th quarter comebacks, especially against bad teams, just illustrate an inability to dominate the entire game.

	03-01-2004 01:43									#30
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quote: at the very least Brady, Holmes, J.Lewis, and McNair should all be ahead of him.

That wouldn't be close to the top . I have no problems with McNair and J. Lewis being marginally ahead of Manning (I understand the argument), but NO for Brady and Holmes, who are both incredibly overrated.

quote: why do people think this is a good stat?

It shows he ain't a choke artist.