03-01-2004 02:54									#1
	GWT Policy Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Ok, let's hash this out. We need input from the team on a policy towards GWT regarding the GCA issue and we then need to invest full authority in the FAM to pursue that policy without the rest of us meddling in it.

Here's my take on what our policy might be:

Regardless of whether mongoose rules that GWT harboring GCA and GCA remaining in a perpetual phony war to give us perpetual war weariness is an exploit (we certainly believe it is), GWT's actions in harboring and protecting GCA as well as supporting them in their efforts to continue such a perpetual war ceases GWT's status as a neutral party in the Apolyton/CFC-GCA conflict.

GWT, by taking this action and continuing to take such action, is a beligerent party in a war opposing Apolyton and our CFC allies.

GWT needs to understand, of necessity, this will mean that Apolyton and CFC will end their state of neutrality in the GWT-CGN conflict and align themselves with CGN, doing what is within our power to aid CGN.

GWT need not yet know and need not know that we intend to aid CGN regardless. We want them to believe (or at least enough of them to believe...) that we have not yet moved to fully supporting CGN and that we still retain at least a nominal neutrality toward the GWT-CGN conflict. Some on GWT may be inclined to then take the possibility of Apolyton and CFC moving to do what is in our power to CGN as a risk they'd rather not take... and what little benefit they acrue from having GCA around doesn't match up to the loss of having Apolyton and CFC actively working against them.

This all assumes, of course, that mongoose rules that GCA may continue their perpetual war and that GWT may continue to harbor them. In my opinion, we have to operate on that assumption until such a point as mongoose rules in our favor (which is more in doubt than I think some may believe).

As for any specific means of convincing GWT that we remain neutral or would intend to remain neutral if GWT would force GCA to make peace with us (or whatever), I would leave that in the capable hands of the FAM. Ultimately, we'd like to avoid having to sign any agreement that we pay with neutrality for their neutrality (which is why it would be nice to know what mongoose is going to rule, as him ruling in our favor saves us from having to pay that price). If it comes to GWT wanting a mutual neutrality agreement after mongoose rules on GCA's behalf agianst us, we'll have to discuss the merits of that.

Now, I'd like everyone who cares to do lay out what they feel our policy toward GWT (and GCA) should be under various circumstances. I'd like to see something of a discussion and then I'd like to see a decision made. We can then leave the particulars and the execution of such a policy in the hands of the FAM.

	03-01-2004 03:12									#2
	Get a bigger avatar today!

First off, we have already made a desicion to support, although clandestinly, CGN. To that end, we have already made several agreements to that effect.

BUT, I'll say this again, GWT is preparing to wage Total and complete war against CGN, with the backing of GCA (and their UU). To this end, neither of them currently have Iron as a resource and are likely doing a slower research on Chiv, so that they have the funds to upgrade.

As part of this Policy towards GWT, we need to interlock our current policy of co-operation with CGN and make sure that we HEAVILY advise CGN that they need to disconnect their own source of Iron and get some Units built for Upgrade, as quickly as possible. If they don't do that, then we run the very real risk of CGN evaporating with us (and also CFC) having to deal only with GWT and CGA. And with neither of them too favorable towards us.

E_T

Last edited by E_T on 03-01-2004 at 04:32

	03-01-2004 03:46									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I'll second what E_T just said.

	03-01-2004 07:08									#4
	Re: GWT Policy Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos GWT need not yet know and need not know that we intend to aid CGN regardless. We want them to believe (or at least enough of them to believe...) that we have not yet moved to fully supporting CGN and that we still retain at least a nominal neutrality toward the GWT-CGN conflict.

My thoughts exactly.

Furthermore, we are going to have to imply that friendship and a better relationship with Apolyton will bring them benefit, or imply that we have enough strength to shift the balance of their coming war against them. While we definately do not want to threaten them, they must "read between the lines" of our diplomacy that we can and will choose to back their enemy if things go bad.

This will require some "carrot & stick" diplomacy.

Our goal: To not polarize GWT against us and to errode their alliance with GCA. Most importantly, our ultimate goal must be to not reveal to GWT our actual agenda with regards to helping CGN in the end.

--Togas

	03-01-2004 09:08									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

So, our main goal is to erode the GWT/GCA alliance?

What are the chances that that will happen? Will we be putting our relationships with CGN and CFC at risk by doing so? How far do we go to get this result?

	04-01-2004 00:54									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by BigFree So, our main goal is to erode the GWT/GCA alliance? What are the chances that that will happen? Will we be putting our relationships with CGN and CFC at risk by doing so? How far do we go to get this result?

We need only erode their alliance to a point where GCA ends their perpetual war against Apolyton. Once that is accomplished, our goal is achieved and there is little else we can hope to accomplish with them.

	08-01-2004 10:44									#7
	Get a bigger avatar today!

*bump*

I'd appreciate more input.

	08-01-2004 11:16									#8
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by E_T As part of this Policy towards GWT, we need to interlock our current policy of co-operation with CGN and make sure that we HEAVILY advise CGN that they need to disconnect their own source of Iron and get some Units built for Upgrade, as quickly as possible. If they don't do that, then we run the very real risk of CGN evaporating with us (and also CFC) having to deal only with GWT and CGA. And with neither of them too favorable towards us.

I discussed this with CGN about a week and a half ago (logs lost to the bowels of my FUBARed computer).

CGN was mostly against the idea of disconnecting their iron. They were fully aware of its benefits, however they felt that their need for gold to upgrade current Horsemen, remaining Spears and Swords, and soon Pikes to Muskets along with needing a cash reserve as well as doing fast research in addition to cutting their iron to upgrade Knights would be too much of a drain on their economy. With 12 new Knights in 10 turns (or something like that) 2 walled, barracked and heavily defended cities they felt secure with where they werre without needing to cut the iron.

Hopefully the situation won't deteriorate any where they are incorrect.

	08-01-2004 11:19									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Personally, I don't really care either way what we do with GWT. We can't trade techs with them, we can't trade luxuries or resources until Navigation, we have an official embargo, they're harboring our enemies, they're probably about to enter our waters without permission among other things.

I wouldn't mind trying to improve our relationship, but after that last chat I'm very doubtful any progress can be made.

	08-01-2004 11:26									#10
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I still say screw GWT. We have no ability to leverage them whatsoever against GCA. GCA obviously 'teleported' many units over there and will help GWT immensly in the impending war against CGN. GWT has already decided what the alliances are; so have we, to an extent, only that we have tried to hide ours for the most part. But, tell me that GWT doesn't already expect what we have already commited ourselves to as far as CGN goes.

I say go to defacto war against GWT, the same state as we would be in with GCA should mongoose rule in our favor. We also require that CFC enter into this state as well. This makes it cleary a 3 against 2 alliance. Do we gain anything out of doing this? Maybe not. Do we lose anything from it? I don't think there was anything to ever gain, so I'd answer "No."

The trick is to make sure that GCA/GWT don't run over CGN and that they 'deadlock' somehow. That should be our (CFC's & APO's) mission. Then the CFC/APO combo creep into the lead while the big boys (for now) battle it out.

The only thing we get out of making it official is that we no longer have to 'play nice' with theses guys. We travel through theri waters if we feel like taking the chance they might attack us. They will obviously do the same to us. Our FAM can then concentrate on the CFC relationship and steer that in a direction that ensures that CFC is in this game to help APO win, period. We also help CGN just enough to keep them even or slightly stronger than GCA/GWT.

Anyways, that's how I see it.

	21-01-2004 09:31									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

This topic may need a new look after the GWT galley incidents.

Input welcome.

	21-01-2004 11:02									#12
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

At this point, I really don't see what we can do with GWT to improve the situation. They've brought GCA into their midst and so long as those two work together, we really can't work with them or even maintain a true neutrality. GCA, as their proxy, attacked and sank one of our galleys and GWT violated our territory. We really are at a point where we're in a state of Cold War with GWT. Our allies may fight them and we may fight their minion, but we are not (and should not be) directly in conflict with them.

I would advise that we not seek them out for chats nor send any correspondence. I also strongly stress that we not go publicly anti-GWT. We should covertly work against them by supporting and joining with CGN, and we should wait until a time comes that GWT realizes that they need a better relationship with us. When (and if) that happens we will be in the right position to negotiate the end of their GCA aid.

Should CGN win the war, GWT would also be forced to come to us and be forced to relent to our insistance that GCA be cut loose. It is my opinion that we should stand firm on our demand that GWT sever its ties to GCA.

--Togas

	21-01-2004 11:50									#13
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Indeed, as I see it, GWT support for GCA makes GWT a belligerent rather than neutral party in the GCA-Apolyton/CFC war.

As long as that situation continues, whether the war or dispute between GCA and Apolyton/CFC and/or the GWT support for GCA, we have a problem with GWT.

Togas' advice simply to ignore GWT for now and let them be the ones to send the olive branch when they feel they need to may indeed be the right move. I'm willing to go with this.

	21-01-2004 16:26									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos This topic may need a new look after the GWT galley incidents. Input welcome.

For the purposes of this thread could someone please summarise the essentials of these 'incidents'?