03-01-2004 03:18									#1
	Boosting our science past the Hive Remove this text

Super Science City-project

Now that we are pacted with Hive and have realtime details of how they are doing Implaer noticed something alarming...

Hive has 2 major cities with entire population is librarians. With 14 librarians these super science cities make 2/3 of Hive research. The cities are feed by an army of crawlers and they are most likely being boosted with CPs.

This is why Hive makes scientific breakthroughs every 4 turns! compared to our 11 this is truly an amazing and incredible achievement, thanks to Kody I assume. We, of course have to do something-quickly.

We should start our own SSC project immediately. It will take time and resources but we have to lauch it sometime very soon just to keep up with Hive and the Drones. In order to re-educate all or atleast half of the base population as librarians the bases minimum size is 5.
Logical Loop seems to be the only base we could launch a project like this. LL needs network node and 2-3 crawlers + maybe some pod boosting at start. This way and with Free Market we maybe able to push our labs enought to have breakthroughs every 7-9 turns. Wich is not satifying, but ok for the moment. Later with more SSCies we might be able to push it somewhere between 3-5 turns.


We may need to start slowly and finish the ongoing war, but after that I suggest we take building 2-3 SSCies as out #1 priority.

Last edited by laurentius on 03-01-2004 at 13:56

	03-01-2004 03:50									#2
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Rather then speak of # turns to reserch, I perfer to think in # of Research points generated as turns is heavily dependent on how many tecs you have. Unfortunatly we become the tec leader after assimilating PEACE and will have slower turns to reserch even if our output is equal to the Hives.

After a bit of tinkering I see that we can likly match or exceed the Hives current lab output if we take FreeMarket and push research alocation up to 70-80%. We need only 10% Econ to pay our upkeep (and we could go go down to zero on ocasions) and 20% Pych will likly help us Control Drones so after the war is over and theirs less need for Credits this is a good option.

I have come up with a tenative plan to Make LL a 4 Librarian base but we will need atleast 2 more Crawlers. We may also wanto to consider something similar for PiSquare in a bit. Tripoli might make a good Science City if we get a Rec Commons built as we have the option of directly working the large Nut bonus their.

We also need to get stronger relations with the University and if nessary protect them From Hive/Drone agression. Uni can give us most of the Tecs we need if the Hive refuses to trade them. After that we can work togehter to reach Air Power quickly so Uni can Defend itself. They will need Perimiter Defences, AiroSpace complexes, AAA units and Plasma Armor to hold off Missle Drop Infantry, Drop Probes and Missle Nedlle Jets. I dont think we can let Uni fall to the Hive or Drones or they will basicaly have won the game. We should keep Uni as our Shield and Tec Trading Partner as we expand by war on the Belivers and ultimatly keep a tec advantage over the Builder factions. At the same time we must not tip our hand to the Hive or Drones.

	03-01-2004 06:56									#3
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

The specialist base strategy Kody used is very good for factions with low efficiency (because specialists don't suffer ineffiency as opposed to energy harvested by workers or crawlers) and factions that can't run free market (and as a consequence have one energy less per worker compared to factions with FM).
Perfect for the Hive in other words.
However for the Consciousness, with its high efficiency and ability to run FM, the approach where you use lots of specialists, crawlers and formers to build condensers, is much less useful. A heavy-worker/forest approach as I advocated a while back suits them much better IMHO.
Also it would be a waste to make all-specialist bases out of Logic Loop or Pi Square, bases close to our HQ (thus little inefficiency) and with lots of bonus squares (making workers better than specialists). If you want all-specialist bases, they would be better far from our HQ and with poor lands around them. Bases such as Binary Bastion, Mythical Matrix or the two PEACE bases on that western island suit that description much better.

	03-01-2004 20:37									#4
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

But consider that it will be quite some time before thouse bases can be grown to size 5 even if we do use Pods to accelerate them. I am all in favor of planning future Science Bases, Triplex may be a good candidate as we are not yet able to work the land their. But I think we are under a VERY pressing need to accelerate our reserach.

The way I see it the Drone/Hive are in full copoeration. The Drones Get AirPower and the Hive suplies Nural Grafting by resching it after they steal SotHB from Uni. Then they trade and one of them reserches MMI the most dangerous tecnology in the game! Together they could grap the CBA and Cyborg Factory and Chop/Drop the University so fast it would make your head spin.

Lets also look at the math on using Librarians vs working a Forest. A Librarian makes 3 lab points directly. A worker on a Forest will colect 1 energy now, 2 Energy if we have Hybrid Forest and 3 if we add FreeMarket. That 3 energy will be divided up with lets say a generous 80% to reserach giving us 2.4 points of reserch. Multiplied by facility bonuses which we will assume cancel out and we have 2.88 reserch points. Basicaly Equal perhaps even better then what Kody is doing considering the Mins and Nuts also being brought in.

But we calculated our output with a lot of advantages we Dont have and wont have for some time. Ware as the Hive is putting out that 3 points RIGHT NOW. Which is my point we cant be content to be competitive with them 20 turns from now we need to consider the present situation and grabbing our tec after SFF ASAP. Freemarket and the like will ofcorse be of great advantage to us in the future when the war is over but if the Hive/Drone teams is as close to MMI as I think they are then we are in BIG trouble.

By the way we should plug the Hive and Drones current tec knowlage into that Program that predicts what your reserch options are and see what comes out. Then see if adding Nural Grafting to Drones portfolio will alow MMI. Likewise with adding SotHB, Nural Grafting and Air Power for the Drones. I belive Minute Mirage made this program thing. Dose anyone know ware I can download it?

	04-01-2004 04:18									#5
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Minute Mirage's Tech Choice Prediction Program

To give Logic Loop 4 librarians you would have to stop working the two rivered forests that are producing 1-2-2.
When we run 70% labs allocation with +2 Efficiency this theoretically means 2.576 labs, 1.08 credits, four minerals and two nutrients. With FM we get 1-2-3 and +4 efficiency which means with still 70% labs 4.2 labs, 1.8 credits, four minerals and twu nutrients. Librarians would give us 6 labs.
Is getting two or three labs more really worth sacrificing two nutrients, four minerals and 1 to 2 credits?

If we want to become competitive with the Hive and Drones I think we should do it by a steady growth, and not by imitating tactics that are good for the Hive (but not necessarily for the Consciousness) and may give us a few labs more in the short term but will harm our progress on all other fields in the long term: credits, minerals, nutrients...

	05-01-2004 21:16									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Here is a more detailed plan with plenty of calculations to back it up too.

First off we complete the Crawler currently being produced in Logic Loop in 2153 then start a Net Node. We move the new Crawler to the 5 Nut bonus, it can begin working that bonus in 2154. On that turn we set 4 of the Bases Population to Librarians and work only the Energy Bonus and Monolith. This will give us a total nut intake of 12 (5Crawled, 4worked, 3Tanks) fully supporting the Bases 6 population. We also Scrap the Bases Ogree for 5 rows of minerals which will bring the Net Node to the edge of completion, the rest can be hurried for a modest sum of Credits. Now we have no Drone problems even though the base has only a Rec Commons, we have sacraficed 5 minerals and growth is stagnant, Credit output is reduced by 1.

Now lets analize the Output. 4 Librarians generate 12 raw reserch, of the bases remaining energy intake of 13 70% goes to research and we end up with 8 additional labs for a total of 20. Then Net Node then bumps that up to 30. And our Factional bonus incresses that yet further to 36!! This is the same Lab output as one of the Hives super Science Cities and we do it with only 4 rather then 7 Librarians.

Now compare with the standard model which would consist of keeping all the workers working. If we are going to take FreeMarket we must either build a Holo Theather or run numerous doctors in the Base as the Ogree can no longer control 2 Drones. Assuming we Scraped the Ogree to help pay for the Holo we would then be many turns away from building a Net Node and would still have to use 1 Librarian in the base. Also if we do not have Environmental Economics to lift energy restritcions then we can not reap any benifit from the rivered-forest workers. My estimate is that 11 energy will be devoted to Labs, assuming that 1 Librarin is used (because its better then using a Doctor), we have 14 Labs which our faction bonus incresses to 16.8. Econ Credits would be around 4 but Holo Theathers would most of that up resulting in a net lowering of Credits. Asuming the Crawler currently under Production is used on the 5 nut bonus and workers thus displaced is put on the new farm which will make 3 Nuts then the total surpluss is 5 which would grow the base in roughly 10 turns. Also note that a Buracracy Drone (very likly soon at the rate we are going) in Logic Loop will hit us hard as we are forced to take another worker off production.


So our net effect when going the Librarian route is

+19 Reserch
-5 Minerals
+1 Net Econ
-5 Nuts

I think this is well worth it, 19 reserch is a BIG bost to our current reserch rate and will likly alow us to get our next tec several turns earlier. Also note that because we can take care of ALL our drone Problems its a snap to merge a Colony Pod (likly from Zetaris) into Logic Loop and bring the population up to 7 and generating an addition 5.3 reserch points (3x1.5x1.2). Also note that we can begin construction of new crawlers as soon as the Net Node is done and these can quickly offset the Mineral reduction we suffer by crawling the now vacant forests.

	06-01-2004 07:12									#7
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I've simulated in-game and calculated a few situations as well. The difference in labs is not so great if you also build a network node in my proposal instead of only in the four librarian version, which is only honest when you want to compare.
The proposals are all assuming the crawler is used to harvest the nutrient tile.

Impaler's proposal:

Four librarians
planned economy, 70% labs
no environmental economics
nutrient surplus: 0
mineral production: 10
energy production (inefficient energy not included): 13
credit production: 3 (-1 if network node upkeep)
labs production: 20 (+10 if network node)

Four librarians
free market economy, 90% labs
no environmental economics
nutrient surplus: 0
mineral production: 10
energy production (inefficient energy not included): 16
credit production: 2 (-1 if network node upkeep)
labs production: 26 (+13 if network node)

Four librarians
free market economy, 90% labs
environmental economics
nutrient surplus: 0
mineral production: 10
energy production (inefficient energy not included): 17
credit production: 2 (-1 if network node upkeep)
labs production: 27 (+14 if network node)


My proposal, two librarians, but still work the two forests:

Two librarians
planned economy, 70% labs
no environmental economics
nutrient surplus: 2
mineral production: 14
energy production (inefficient energy not included): 17
credit production: 4 (-1 if network node upkeep)
labs production: 17 (+9 if network node)

Two librarians
free market economy, 90% labs
no environmental economics
nutrient surplus: 2
mineral production: 14
energy production (inefficient energy not included): 21
credit production: 2 (-4 if network node and hologram theatre upkeep)
labs production: 25 (+13 if network node)

Two librarians
free market economy, 90% labs
environmental economics
nutrient surplus: 2
mineral production: 14
energy production (inefficient energy not included): 24
credit production: 2 (-4 if network node and hologram theatre upkeep)
labs production: 28 (+14 if network node)

***

Okay, let's compare the results.

Between the planned economy proposals:
My proposal has compared to Impaler's:
+2 nutrients
+4 minerals
+1 credit
-3/4 labs depending on whether or not a network node is built.
Personally I consider 3 or 4 labs less valuable than 2 nutrients, 4 minerals and 1 credit.

Between the FM - no EnvEcon proposals:
My proposal has compared to Impaler's:
+2 nutrients
+4 minerals
-2 credits
-1 labs
A hologram theatre needs to be built - 6 mineral rows.

Between the FM & EnvEcon proposals:
My proposal has compared to Impaler's:
+2 nutrients
+4 minerals
+1 labs
-2 credits
A hologram theatre needs to be built - 6 mineral rows.

***

I think that under planned economy the higher usefulness of a two instead of four librarian proposal is obvious.

Under the FM & EnvEcon proposal we would even produce MORE labs under my proposal, besides the other benefits of four more minerals and two nutrients. Granted, we have to build a hologram theatre, but that's a one time cost that can be gained back quickly if you get 4 mins, 2 nuts and 1 lab more for it.

In the FM & no EnvEcon scenario the higher usefulness of two librarians over four is less pronounced. We'd still get 4 mins, 2 nuts more, but also 1 lab, 2 credits less. If it were just that, I would still consider 2 libs superior. But with the hologram theatre that needs to be built in the 2 lib proposal, the four librarian proposal may at first sound more lucrative.
However probably (or at least hopefully) the time between when we go FM (and the 4-lib-proposal becomes more useful) and when we acquire EnvEcon (and the 2-lib-proposal (with holo theatre) is more useful again) will be rather short. So probably we'll need to start building a hologram theatre anyway right after we finished a network node.
As far as I can see then the only time the four librarian proposal is more lucrative is between going FM and finishing a hologram theatre. But even then working the two forests instead of creating librarians might be more useful as we'll need those four extra minerals to finish the Holo Theatre asap.

quote: We also Scrap the Bases Ogree for 5 rows of minerals which will bring the Net Node to the edge of completion, the rest can be hurried for a modest sum of Credits.

That unit is still a perfectly functioning combat unit. As long as we're running planned and the police effect works, I won't send it to the front, but if we're going FM, there's no reason to keep it at home, especially as it won't generate pacifism drones.
It's also a great police unit. The police effect won't work under FM, but I assume we won't run FM for the rest of the game. And keeping it around while we're running FM won't hurt us as it has independent support. If you want to disband units, at least do it with those that cost us minerals for support!
Also if it needs to be disbanded, I would suggest we use it on a project that is expensive to hurry, for example a Secret Project, and not a network node.

quote: Also note that because we can take care of ALL our drone Problems its a snap to merge a Colony Pod (likly from Zetaris) into Logic Loop and bring the population up to 7 and generating an addition 5.3 reserch points (3x1.5x1.2).

You'd need also need to crawl in two additional nutrients then. But I don't see why we should use 30 mins to transfer a pop point, while the beneficial effect of doing so is minimal, if there even is any.

quote: Also note that we can begin construction of new crawlers as soon as the Net Node is done and these can quickly offset the Mineral reduction we suffer by crawling the now vacant forests.

But if we kept working the forests, those crawlers can increase our current mineral output instead of merely compensating the loss.

	06-01-2004 10:58									#8
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Nice analysis Maniac

Indeed building a Net Node would significantly reduce the difference between our two proposals. Under my proposal we can have that net Node running in only a few turns. If you do not belive we should Scrap the Ogree then how long will it take us to complete the HoloTheather AND Net Node? A considerable time I would imagine as thats a total of 14 rows total for thouse 2 Facilites 112 minerals total. So 7-9 turns would be a reasonable estimate on completion, yes no?

In that case we dont reap the incressed benifits for quite some time. Under he 4 Librarian strategy with Ogree Scraping we would have the base free to build Crawlers for atleast 6 turns more then under the 2 Librarian proposal. These additional Crawlers could easily make up the initial mineral hit we take and likly exceed it by the point in the future that a 2 Librarian/No scrapping strategy would alow us to even start working on Crawlers.

Under any situation I would propose we Scrap that Ogree as soon as we take FreeMarket. Consider the Turn Advantage it gives us. 5 Rows of Minerals is roughly equal 1 and 2/3 Crawlers (or a Crawler and Former). Asuming forest min Crawling thats a bit more then 3 minerals. So a Base thats building a Net Node or other facility that costs More then 5 Rows could leapfrog directly to Crawler Production and have 3-4 minerals higher intake at the point it would normaly just be completing that Facility. Plus the advantages of having the facility that many turns earlier In the case of Holo's that means less Doctors and more Workers. For a Net Node that will be around 10 reserch.

Using the Ogree on a Secret Project after we take FreeMarket would likly result in a slower build then using it as I have described above. Just as its always best to make Crawlers rather then build the Secret Project directly so too here. By alowing a base to make crawlers when it would otherwise be forced to make a facility we accelerate Crawler production and crawl more minerals and crawl them sooner alowing more crawlers and more minerals in an upward spiral of Turn Advantage. When we eventualy do want to make a Project we can cash the Crawlers instead and still come out ahead even once you consider replacement units like a Plasma Garrison at -1 mineral, true it dose cut into minerals but not enough to negate what a Crawler brings in.

	07-01-2004 04:09									#9
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quote: Indeed building a Net Node would significantly reduce the difference between our two proposals. Under my proposal we can have that net Node running in only a few turns. If you... ...more Workers. For a Net Node that will be around 10 reserch.

Can't the same effect be reached by hurrying with credits instead of with the Ogre? That would be better as IMHO an Ogre (50 mins when disbanded) is more valuable than 100 credits.
If we hurry with credits instead and keep the Ogre, we'll have one more unit to use in war, and as a consequence we can capture bases faster, thereby probably generating more comparative turn advantage than we would by disbanding the Ogre.

quote: Under he 4 Librarian strategy with Ogree Scraping we would have the base free to build Crawlers for atleast 6 turns more then under the 2 Librarian proposal. These additional Crawlers could easily make up the initial mineral hit we take and likly exceed it by the point in the future that a 2 Librarian/No scrapping strategy would alow us to even start working on Crawlers.

If I assume the network node to be hurried with credits, what's left to compare is the build cost of a hologram theatre compared to crawlers. Hologram theatre is 6 rows, which mean two crawlers. Thus in the time we're building a hologram theatre four minerals can indeed be compensated. Bear in mind though that a hologram theatre is cheaper to hurry than two crawlers. So if we have the energy to hurry, building a Hologram Theatre would be more profitable if I understand things correctly.
If we don't have the cash to hurry the Holo Theatre, this would make the four librarian proposal more profitable in the FM & no EnvEcon scenario, but the two librarian proposal would still be more profitable under FM & EnvEcon.
So how about we use two libs as long as we're planned, switch to four libs when we go FM and build crawlers, but when we'll get EnvEcon soon, we start building a hologram theatre so we can return to two libs?

quote: Using the Ogree on a Secret Project after we take FreeMarket would likly result in a slower build then using it as I have described above. Just as...

Good point.

	14-06-2004 14:47									#10
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Hive has 2 major cities with entire population is librarians. With 14 librarians these super science cities make 2/3 of Hive research. The cities are feed by an army of crawlers and they are most likely being boosted with CPs. This is why Hive makes scientific breakthroughs every 4 turns! compared to our 11 this is truly an amazing and incredible achievement, thanks to Kody I assume. We, of course have to do something-quickly.

We golden aged them.

It was supposed to be 6 cities full of librarians, but I kept dropping in and out all the time so it didn't quite happen. In the simulation I got the tech rate to a tech every 2 turns, boy was I proud.

	14-06-2004 14:57									#11
	Put an end to popups!

I wished we had these kinds of discussions in the Hive. My discussions were so one sided interspaced with that dizzy smiley symbol from various team mates.

	14-06-2004 17:51									#12
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Then why don't you join the Spartans for the next ACDG? Due to your work I guess you won't have time for micromanaging (but that others among which me can do), but it would be nice to have some general strategy discussions from time to time.

	14-06-2004 17:56									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

but I get so obessive about things

	14-06-2004 21:15									#14
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Don't worry. I wouldn't let you do all the work even if you wanted to.

	15-06-2004 00:29									#15
	Full PM-box? Change here!

In Gaians you will have some real people to talk too! At least who understand strategy and who will appreciate your time. [/duty]

	15-06-2004 02:37									#16
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

In Morgan, you can pay your personal slaveperson to do the work for you

	15-06-2004 02:50									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

And in Sparta, we shoot intruding Gaians and Morganites.

	15-06-2004 03:11									#18
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

* And the Angels wait a bit on the sideline before making their move...

	15-06-2004 03:12									#19
	Increase the size of your Attachments

No, you're shot too due to "collateral damage".
Sorry.

	16-06-2004 23:28									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

This indeed is good discussions. I hope we will see some of this kind of discussions in the Gaians.

	17-06-2004 00:49									#21
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I can`t wait for authorisation to Hive forums

	17-06-2004 02:56									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by obstructor I can`t wait for authorisation to Hive forums

Try following the links Kody and HongHu provided in the main forum, Ob. I'm already saliving...

	17-06-2004 03:09									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Maybe you shouldnīt pull Kody too hard trying to drag him into your respective faction... Heīs had problems because of his 16h workday within the Hive, and we soon became too dependant on him, even though most of us didnīt want to.

Itīs always easy to say "It wonīt happen in #insert-factionname-here#" but it would.

After all, let him decide freely whether or not to join the next DG.

Of course he will soon see the benefits of joining the pure builder faction of the Morganites. His abilities together with Googlieīs experience and Tassadarīs spam potential would make us the most adorable faction in the game

	17-06-2004 03:21									#24
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

'adorable' is not exactly the word I would use...

	17-06-2004 03:31									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

So I guess former CPU members are considered valuable for the next game then...

	17-06-2004 07:02									#26
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Interfaction fighting over me. I feel like a virigin brought into a brothel for the very first time.

	17-06-2004 12:29									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Hehe, isnīt there a free whore for every Morganite...? Iīve always wondered where those come from, seeing the apparant shortage on women in this game...

	17-06-2004 13:23									#28
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Never heard of mis-advertising?

Something free marketers are very fond of I hear...

	17-06-2004 15:39									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Micha Hehe, isnīt there a free whore for every Morganite...? Iīve always wondered where those come from, seeing the apparant shortage on women in this game...

* Illuminatus looks at Angels.
Angels certainly have the biggest percentage of women. However Morganites continue to advertise free ****** Something definetly doesn't match here. Might I ask what sex are this Morgan ****** ?

	17-06-2004 17:07									#30
	Inflate your Upload Space

Well, the answer is clear, no Angel probing necessary to reveal the homogenious nature of the Morgans...