03-01-2004 16:13									#1
	Cacelled Flights, and "They who would give up an essential liberty for temporar...&quot Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Many of the Americans on this board are known to liberally quote the following in many different arguments:

quote: They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security

(Benjamin Franklin)

By cancelling those flights with a suspected risk to security, aren't we doing the exact thing Franklin warned about - giving up a liberty in the name of security?

I've never been too keen on the quote myself, but several here seem to be. I'm just wondering how you square both the quote and the cancellation of flights. Should all flights go ahead, regardless?

	03-01-2004 16:15									#2
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It's been updated. 'Those would would give up convenience for liberty or security, are pissing off the rest of us'.

	03-01-2004 16:16									#3
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Airspace is subject to government regulation for safety and security purposes.

So what's the essential liberty here?

	03-01-2004 16:17									#4
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Thread number 1498 in Boddington's continuing fuzzy logic saga.

	03-01-2004 16:17									#5
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quote: So what's the essential liberty here?

Freedom to travel isn't an essential liberty?

What is?

	03-01-2004 16:19									#6
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Freedom to travel is certainly an essential liberty. Freedom to pass through US sovereign airspace is not.

	03-01-2004 16:20									#7
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It's like saying freedom to travel is an essential liberty therefore I should be able to cut through Army bases on my way to work.

	03-01-2004 16:23									#8
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quote: Freedom to travel is certainly an essential liberty. Freedom to pass through US sovereign airspace is not.

quote: It's like saying freedom to travel is an essential liberty therefore I should be able to cut through Army bases on my way to work.

So at the moment we're still stuck on what liberties are essential and which are not.

I'm pretty sure we'll soon get to the point - if Floyd arrives - where we realise the only essential liberty is holding a gun.

	03-01-2004 18:35									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue I'm pretty sure we'll soon get to the point - if Floyd arrives - where we realise the only essential liberty is holding a gun.

And owning private property.

	03-01-2004 18:42									#10
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nice to see UR finally accepting that ownership of private property is essential

bods, you are getting confused here, a right to travel is an essential right, but the right to use a BA (or any other airline's) plane is not. if you have your own plane then you are perfectly free to make any journey you desire.

your liberty is hardly being infringed by a company cancling a flight. it's like saying that your right to own property is infringed because a company decides to stop making a particular product.

	03-01-2004 18:49									#11
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I also would say that is doesn´t mean "to give up essential freedoms" when they cancel certain flights for security reasons. That doesn´t mean the people who will fly to a certain destination can never do so. They can probably very soon, with the next flights.

"To give up" would mean that they say "flying has become too dangerous because of potential attacks, so let´s stop all air travel once and for all".

	03-01-2004 19:17									#12
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Liberty isn't much good if you are dead, is it? After all, you have to be alive to enjoy freedom.

	03-01-2004 19:19									#13
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney nice to see UR finally accepting that ownership of private property is essential

Sorry to confuse you. I meant David Floyd would hold that owning private property is essential.

	03-01-2004 19:19									#14
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney bods, you are getting confused here, a right to travel is an essential right, but the right to use a BA (or any other airline's) plane is not. if you have your own plane then you are perfectly free to make any journey you desire.

No, you aren't. I'm pretty sure that even in the UK, the use of private planes is subject to the aviation authority, so you have to use specified flight paths, submit flight plans for approval, etc.

And no, Bodds, the ability to fly anywhere without inconvenience isn't an essential liberty.

	03-01-2004 19:22									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov No, you aren't. I'm pretty sure that even in the UK, the use of private planes is subject to the aviation authority, so you have to use specified flight paths, submit flight plans for approval, etc.

well i thought that went without saying

	03-01-2004 19:52									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue Freedom to travel isn't an essential liberty? What is?

Take a boat.

	03-01-2004 20:25									#17
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The only essential liberty is to hold a gun.

	03-01-2004 21:06									#18
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So now you're DF's DL?

	03-01-2004 21:34									#19
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Really suprised about this, Flight 223 which was canceled was the exact flight a took awhile back to get back from Europe. Good thing I got back when I did.....

	03-01-2004 21:51									#20
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Diplomat: some would rather die than live life without freedom. Yes, you must be alive to enjoy freedom, but what if there's nothing to enjoy?

Also, it's coming out now that most of the flights that have been cancelled were due to archaic US security lists -- probably because our dozen databases are STILL not linked together, despite plans and promises to do this shortly after 9/11. Several of the British flights were cancelled not due to overwhelming security concerns, but because British pilots refused to fly with armed guards on their planes.

	04-01-2004 00:28									#21
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Cancelling a flight isnt an infringement on liberty. You don't have a right to arrive on time to your destination. If you dont want to have any delays, fly Aircuba, or some other shitty airline where they wont bother checking.

	04-01-2004 13:25									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue So at the moment we're still stuck on what liberties are essential and which are not

No we aren't. There is no law whatsoever that claims that I have the right to pass through US sovereign airspace in order to complete my journey. That's a convenience afforded air travellers and is subject to the rules and regulations imposed by the rightful ruler of this territory: the US government.

	04-01-2004 13:40									#23
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What about cancelling a flight because passengers've got the same name as a would-be terrorist? Don't these people have the right to have whatever name their parents gave them? I mean they cancelled flights becuase there were children named as a would-be terrorist. Be serious.

	04-01-2004 14:04									#24
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Regulation of air travel is properly a government function, and I'm perfectly willing to let the government cancel flights as necessary.

The much more interesting question is, was cancellation of the flights really based on any kind of meaningful information, or is it just part of the government's continuing effort to instill terror in the American people? I mean, if you had reason to believe that specific, named people were planning to mess with specific flights, wouldn't you keep everything completely normal and then arrest them when they walked in with their box cutters? Anyone who thinks canceling the flights is the smart way to deal with that situation just isn't thinking about it at all.

	04-01-2004 16:43									#25
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quote: Really suprised about this, Flight 223 which was canceled was the exact flight a took awhile back to get back from Europe. Good thing I got back when I did.....

It's quite a regular flight..

	04-01-2004 19:47									#26
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On my way home from visiting relatives I listened to an interview of Randy Newman on NPR. One of his songs which they played was the classic: Let's Drop The Big One . I don't know why, but that tidbit of information just seemed relevant to this thread.

	04-01-2004 21:35									#27
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I still prefer Short People.

	04-01-2004 22:15									#28
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare What about cancelling a flight because passengers've got the same name as a would-be terrorist? Don't these people have the right to have whatever name their parents gave them? I mean they cancelled flights becuase there were children named as a would-be terrorist. Be serious.

You are acting like we dragged them out of the plane and shot them for having the same name as a Terrorist. I would rather wait because of the delay and not met St. Peter, than them not to delay the plane and it ended up being a terriorest and killing 100s if not 1000s of people. If that happened you people would probably would of said 'Well you had the information why didn't you stop the plane'