03-01-2004 20:28									#1
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Aidun from RP sent a PM about WW - copy in the log, and here for dicussion, with my reply.

quote: Sorry for the late reply, I forgot to check because I got no notice of a new PM. You are right on Lego. Negotiations with ND failed as you have seen by the fall of Pamplona. GoW approached us for peace, but we have a feeling that it is not real and are now discussing if it is fair to remain at war while using the advantage of your seawall and while we do not fight anymore. Arnelos suggested to discuss this with GS too. Though our lurkers have come up with the idea that it is unfair and not honourable, this is accepted as true, but not fully embraced. I fear that war, defeat and the total sphere of the relationships between teams - of distrust, hatred, treachery and occasionally even feud - has filled our minds with bitterness and left deep scars in our skins. Arnelos is moderate: not directly make peace, but also not remain in an endless war without fighting. BigFree is with him this time. For me, the words honour and fairness have but a faint meaning to me and I am currently more of the wing of "grab what you can get" or "do whatever to deny another fortune". Before I forget it, there is also something joyful: Happy Nwe Year. Aidun

and the reply

quote: Hi Aidun, thanks for your PM. Yes, we need to consider the WW question. GoW have requested that we ask you to make peace with them - in reply we said we'd discuss it with you. Internally at GS, there is no unanimous opinion either way. Some feel that WW is a legit tool under these circumstances, others feel it an exploit. I would add that right or wrong - it could set a game precedent that could be used against us both later. We can be sure that as your protector, GS will take an equal share of any blame or resentment if long term WW is deployed against GoW/ND. On the other hand, GoW shouldn't expect automatic magnanimity - perhaps they could offer you something in return for peace. Ultimately though, someone has to hit Lego soon, and that has to be ND and GoW. If we cripple them with WW, it just hands Lego the game. In all our dicussions with GoW we repeatedly emphasise that grudges and hate are not the way to win the game - pragmatic alliances are, and we think that applies to all teams. Regards, Cort

We've had discussion on this on various threads recently, but it's time to give this matter a thread of its own.

	03-01-2004 22:29									#2
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okay, without repeating arguments, I'm in favour of them making peace. If that implies a symbolic gift from GoW, fine. But I would not expect GOW to pay for peace, it might be a clever way of using game mechanics, I don't like it.

And I will admit before anyone reminds me that I'm too much of a honour guy to be bothered by pragmatic things like winning this game

DeepO

	03-01-2004 23:14									#3
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CH you may want to reconsider terms like protecor and use something like ally. It is not much, but a little face can't hurt.

I won't repeat my thoughts on WW and you have a good point about crippling them. I would say that they could drag their feet a bit, like everyone did to us in the trade talks. To me that was not about being busy or forgetting, I would suspect it was deliberate.
Unless they gave RP something to make it worth while.

	04-01-2004 02:43									#4
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I think it's absurd for the defeated to expect to receive anything for not using a broken game mechanic against the victor.

	04-01-2004 03:27									#5
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a bit ironic considering the situation in the ISDG

I think RP should have to accept a peace with Gow/ND. the mechanics should not be exploited (haha)

	04-01-2004 06:16									#6
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I think it's absurd for the defeated to expect to receive anything for not using a broken game mechanic against the victor.

First they are not yet defeated, second it would be to stop your own pain (GoW). It is very cheap to give a tech, say Chem, that RP will have soon from their partners anyway.

It is not that painful for GoW to be magnanimous in this spot and is in their best interest. Otherwise they get to have their cake and eat it too, very greedy. You have to pay one way or another. It is their choice.

It is part of the game, the same as Lego being able to help GoW/ND without paying any price.

	05-01-2004 05:38									#7
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from Aidun (copy in log)

quote: Hi Cort Haus, Thanks for your response. This time mine is fairly on time. Your reasoning is quite the same as Arnelos' argumentation. You are right that we shouldn't forget the diplomacy, even thou it doesn't seem to play any part anymore. If there will ever be real long lasting peace between parts of the two alliances, illtreatment now may cause a defeat later. I think but that with the fall of Roleplay, the diplomacy will never be the same and in-game power will rather than words and clever maneuvres determine which nation wins and which loses. We of Roleplay will not stop the war until GoW has payed us in some way. Their greed to get Pamplona was bigger than their ability to rationally think and look at the real enemy: Legoland. They would better have spared their troops for an attack on Lego's soil. Now we will not forgive that mistake very easily. I will press for payment. You are however our protectors and though you did not agree to let us become a vassalstate when we offered this to you in return for aid, we have a debt to you that lasts until the end of the game. Twice you saved us. By aiding us and recently by offering your land to us for free to let us survive. Still you are protecting us with your seawall. You will therefore have a dominant say in what foreign policy we will conduct. We are afterall not your ally to be an obstacle on your road. Please keep us informed about the discussion in your team and I'll do so for us. Regards, Aidun

	05-01-2004 08:31									#8
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RP can do whatever they want. If they don't want to make peace to hurt GoW, it's fine. We should leave this decision up to them and not meddle in.

What concerns this honor stuff... I hoped it was away from us. It has brought us no good. Forget it, for Gods sake. One can act honorably, but who thinks he need to brag about his own honor or to mention it endlessly, usually has none.

	05-01-2004 11:12									#9
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I don't know. We did make a pledge to protect them. We should at least try to reason with RP, try to convince them that peace with GoW now would be in their best interest.

If that fails, threaten to shut them up forcefully by taking back N. Stormia, and taking them out of the game. I suspect their will to survive will get them to clam up and listen to us.

	05-01-2004 12:35									#10
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I am not sure how we are being more honorable by taken on RP, if they don't do as we say. I agree with Sir Ralph, we should bow out of that discussion and tell GoW we gave it a shot, but are not willing to turn on RP for them. That seems fair to me.

	05-01-2004 21:29									#11
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comment from Arrian on this subject, (originally posted on another thread) :

quote: I think peace needs to be organized relatively quickly at this point. I don't like the "give us stuff or we will stay at war with you" thing, while I do understand RP trying to get whatever they can out of GoW. Perhaps a quick note to Aggie to the affect of "hey, we're trying to set up peace between you guys and RP, and it seems that they want something from you for peace. In the interest of getting this done, is there some token thing you could part with? Perhaps 20 turns of a luxury (which RP probably doesn't even need)? I think it's the willingness to toss something their way that matters most, not the value. What do you think?" Something like that. If they refuse, then I think we need to "advise" RP to just make peace straight-up. -Arrian

	05-01-2004 21:51									#12
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Thanks for all the contributions, everyone.

There's something to be said for this idea of GoW offering RP a light token - not to be seen as payment for peace but as a gesture. I think we should suggest to GoW that they should approach RP directly rather than going through us. Looking at the comments from Aidun, it seems that some people within RP are not too enthused about the perptetual WW ploy - as they recognise that someone (GoW & ND) have to hit Lego soon, or Lego win.

Looking at Bob, ND cities in the north are starting to be handed over to GoW, I think. This suggests that the Bobians have not fallen out - at least not yet - and may be preparing to attack Lego, who are still growing almost horizontally on the power graph.

If GoW & RP can't sort themselves out then I think we would eventually have to suggest firmly to RP that they make peace - to stop Lego winning.


how about this propsed note to GoW:

quote: Aggie, We've suggested to RP that they might like to consider making peace with GoW, and while there appears to be no unanimous militant determination within RP to continue with an endless cold war, there are some sore feelings that aren't in any urgent hurry to offer GoW early favours. GS currently have no formal vassel arrangement with RP - we obviously have influence and can advise them but as it stands they maintain their sovereignty. We think that you at GoW should approach RP directly to negotiate peace - perhaps offering some minor trinket or token - not a valuable payment, but a gesture of peace and goodwill. Perhaps a luxury (which they don't need, and won't do them much good) would seal the deal. After all, GS and RP are gone from Bob, so you can recieve your contractual payment from ND. PS - we sent you furs unaccepted. If you fancy a straight one-for-one lux deal, reply with wines accepted and we'll be in business Regards, etc

	05-01-2004 22:30									#13
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Excellent PM, Cort. I say send it.

-Arrian

	06-01-2004 01:12									#14
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PM sent to GoW

	06-01-2004 01:28									#15
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note to Aidun (copy in log):

quote: Aidun, We have suggested to GoW that they approach you directly to discuss peace. Should they contact you in this capacity, we wish you well in any discussions. Regards, CH

	10-01-2004 17:03									#16
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(copy in log)

quote: We have 7 units ready to form our own sea wall. If you'd like, you can start moving units from the top-right corner of the map and we'll fill in the gaps. If you have any questions, let me know. We just need to make sure not to move anyone near the GoW ship to the north-east as GoW and ND move before us. We accepted Gunpowder but didn't know what to offer for it. I offered WM but we'd be happy to give you gold as well. We have @140 gold and make aprox 30gpt. We have plans to buy Printing Press from the Voxians and would be happy to give that to you as well. Banking will be done in just over 20 turns and we'll also gift that to you. Our lone ship. Please protect it as it heads home. We still are not at peace with GoW and ND and while GoW has offered peace we've been reluctant to accept as we're waiting for someone in the GoW/ND/Lego alliance to go to war and we'd like to pick one of 'em to suffer continued WW. However, if none of them go to war, I'll probably go peace, but I have to say that most of my team is still very emotional and vengeful about the issue. Most of them want to keep the war going. --Togas

	10-01-2004 20:38									#17
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Blah, that whole "emotional and vengeful" part worries me a bit. As does this:

quote: we've been reluctant to accept as we're waiting for someone in the GoW/ND/Lego alliance to go to war and we'd like to pick one of 'em to suffer continued WW.

Indefinite war for the express purpose of WW, when RP cannot be actually fought by its "enemy" is not good, IMO. I think that's pretty cheesy... but it's definitely a gray area in these games, as many tactics are, since we didn't set up a master list of what is and isn't an exploit at the beginning. *sigh*

Personally, I'd like to see RP make peace within the next 5 turns.

-Arrian

	10-01-2004 21:20									#18
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Hmmm... Lego are still defending GoW, and may remain in defence of GoW until peace is made with RP. Under these circumstances, Lego will not be attacked by the Bobians, and will win the game.

Is this what RP want? To stop GS winning the game?

	10-01-2004 21:24									#19
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We are giving tech to RP at the moment, and they've offered to pay. Maybe we could say to RP that payment for Gunpowder and Astronomy is peace with GoW and ND - and then try and get GoW/ND to pay us in turn for persuading - by carrot at first, and stick if necessary.

	10-01-2004 21:56									#20
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Turn-report to Togas here.

	10-01-2004 21:58									#21
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I agree.

Oh, and we should tell them that we are already getting printing press from vox in a few turns. (wonder how much they're paying them for the tech, our contract doesn't have an NDA on it, too bad they didn't talk to us first....though the relations is good)

	10-01-2004 22:02									#22
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They should already know about PP - I mentioned it in a PM to them. I think we should make Astro dependent on the peace. I think that the WW tactic can only help Lego at this point.

	10-01-2004 23:34									#23
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no, don't force RP to make peace, just ask. And explain to them that it could very well be that as long as they stay at war, contracts between ND-GoW-Lego stay in place.

Strange PP... I guess Vox is not paying attention very well, or assume we won't give it to RP ourselves. Make sure that RP asks for an NDA, otherwise whatever they give will go straight to Lego.

DeepO