03-01-2004 23:54									#1
	When playing a non-religious Civ: How many revolutions? Despotism->Republic only one? Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

This is for Emperor Level. Lower levels are more forgiving on this.

1. How many Government changes do you make when playing a non religious civ?

2. Is it dangerous to stay in republic and let opponents switch and run in democracy? When playing Emperor.

3. Do you need to try to either wipe your oppoenents out on before democracy or switch to it yourself?

	04-01-2004 02:29									#2
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IMHO:

1. Generally one.

2. No, it is not dangerous. Democracy and Republic are very, very similar (worker speed & WW being the big differences).

3. Nope.

If I were to make two switches, it would most likely be Despot-Monarchy-Republic.

Catt

	04-01-2004 05:13									#3
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I usually play Despot->Republic with an occasional switch to Democracy if I need the extra worker efficiency. Usually, however, I find that a tight civ with less than 20 or so cities works very well on Republic.

Sometimes, if I am feeling particularly fighty, I will play Despot a lot longer. In those games, I make the switch from Despot to Democracy when I'm ready to "settle down" and start building.

In answer to your other questions:

2) Not at all dangerous. The AI certainly doesn't have any huge advantage when in Democracy that you don't have in Republic.

3) Nope. Even under Democracy, you can wage a *very* effective war. Especially if you have a bunch of luxuries and Marketplaces in a couple of your large cities.

- TT

	04-01-2004 06:32									#4
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1- one
2- no

I cannot recall the last time I was in demo, so I have no cluse as to its value. I am now running as a religious civ for a change and may just give it a shot. Nay why bother?

To me it is so hard to make that first switch, that I won;t do another as a non-religious civ. I often find I have been in despot too long and try to find a time that it will not kill this or that (wonder/tech).

	04-01-2004 10:55									#5
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1. One. Usually Despot -> Republic

2. No. When the AI starts to war with you they will often switch to communicsm anyway (or perhaps fascism now).

3. No. The AI is not smart enough to exploit the small difference between Republic and Democracy.

	04-01-2004 11:08									#6
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Demo is MUCH better than Rep in Conquests. Why?

In Republic, you get one free unit support per city. It then cost 2 gold per turn for every unit above the free support.

Now in Demo, you get no free unit support, but it only costs 1 gold per turn to support these units.

I'm not sure about the rest of you, but in my games, I usually have enough workers alone to make Demo profitable. Add in all the Artillery units, Defensive units, Offensive units and Navy, and it is almost required to switch.
Saddly, I must say, this is on Monarch or lower. I have yet to finish an Emperor game.

	04-01-2004 11:43									#7
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With C3C I go Despot>Republic>Deomocracy, or Despot>Feudal>Democracy.

I played Republic all game a few times with PtW, but not with Conquests, for reasons donegeal just pointed out.

	04-01-2004 19:51									#8
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In fact the new support rule favor republic than democracy. In republic, a city grant 3 free units, and a metropolis 4. (1 is per town.) That is, even 5 units per city cost lesser in republic (4 gpt) than in democracy (5 gpt)

	04-01-2004 20:08									#9
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You can manage multiple switches, but you GOTTA be careful. Nice times to switch include when you're just starting a war and have enough units to live a few turns without much trouble - when you have a tech lead enough to last you until you get back to a 'representative' gov, and when you have the AI distracted, fighting itself and so not making progress itself

Do it when you need to. Don't fear changing, if you delay long over the optimum time, your efficiency will take a hit anyway

Lastly, Republic vs Democracy depends entirely on the size of your army. Small army peeps will have more fun in republic, but anyone with enough 'over-support' such that their bill is OVER 1gpt per unit on average is better in democracy. Luckily, the math is given by the advisor anyway

	04-01-2004 23:52									#10
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I'm another (like Risa) that thinks the support changes to Republic in C3C makes it a more powerful late game government than it was in PTW (i.e., even less reason for me to switch to Demo than there was in PTW).

Catt

	05-01-2004 00:27									#11
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Can be. Depends on number of cities and number of units.

	05-01-2004 11:28									#12
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There are two basic strategies I've used for staying in Republic in C3C. (1) Build wealth instead of additional units when the military starts getting expensive. (2) Alternatively, build units and send them out to get more cities. Actually, the two techniques are probably best combined: a large republic that doesn't try to field a huge military during peacetime can do extremely well with unit support costs.

Note that Democracy does offer some corruption advantage over Republic. So the break-even point where Democracy starts to provide an advantage is a bit lower in number of units than a pure comparison of support costs would indicate. (Of course if you fight to a point where war weariness starts to become an issue, the balance starts to shift back in favor of Republic.)

One factor that makes Democracy a little more attractive in C3C, at least for the moment, is that the weaker FP tends to result in significantly longer industrial and modern research times. (Prior to C3C, 4-turn research through most of the industrial and modern eras was the norm for me on Emperor. Now four-turn industrial and modern techs seem to be rare exceptions even with a large, powerful civ.) Thus, the turns needed to switch to Democracy may be a bit less of an issue compared with the overall length of the game.

I still haven't developed a clear pattern for how many government changes I'll generally tend to make in C3C. For the time being, I play it by ear, and my choices are influenced about as much by what I'm in a mood to do in a particular game as they are by cold, careful analysis of which government will provide more advantages. (I don't tend to do my own research into Printing Press and Democracy, though; it's a lot harder for Democracy to provide enough advantage to be worth a research detour.)

Nathan

	05-01-2004 22:15									#13
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Sadly the support changes in C3C just reinforce the characteristic single switch from earlier versions.

	06-01-2004 01:34									#14
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I agree. I haven't used Democracy yet in Conquests (I also haven't played any religious civs yet). Despot -> Republic every time.

By the time I get Demo, I just can't stomach another ~5 turns of anarchy when my civ is humming along in republic. Especially when I know that republic favors my playstyle. I occasionally miss the faster workers, and the idea that I'm not running the most efficient empire possible does irritate me, but I haven't yet brung myself to start that extra revolution.

-Arrian

	06-01-2004 02:36									#15
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I just played as a religious civ and did not switch to Demo. To many wars and too many units. The faser workers was soon not an issue as I have all my rails up and just rush a stack over to clean up when needed.

I was too lazy to stop and figure out if it was really worth it or not. China was in Demo, but keep having to drop back to Facist.
I think they do not suffer much of a delay when switch, even though not religious.

	06-01-2004 03:16									#16
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I have switched to democracy in several games (non-religious), purely because I don't want to see those corruption. I normally beeline to democracy tech (for trade and wonder building), but no revolution until entering industrial era. At that point, first wave of military expansion has over, wonder race ends as well, I can afford the Anarchy period.

BTW, no democracy in OCC or 5CC, never.

	06-01-2004 12:11									#17
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It doesn't really help when Demo war ASSUMES Universal Suffrage, either
If I were ever stopped form getting it, it would quickly become a no-brainer and I'd stick to Republic. And as I push the difficulty up - that'll likely eventually happen

	07-01-2004 07:32									#18
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Is it just me? I think Republic SUCKS coming out of Despotism.

Which means two gov switches. I've been playing Desp->Mon->Demo/Rep, depending on then circumstances.

And yes, the second period of non-REL anarchy is painful, but I've been finding that there is a period where my core cities (this is C3C BETA, so only one core) have built everything I want, and the rest are on one or two shield rates at building Courthouses, so that it's actually OK to not be adding shields, and I in fact generate greater excess gold.

	07-01-2004 07:59									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Is it just me? I think Republic SUCKS coming out of Despotism.

I agree that an early switch to Republic is not the advantage it once was -- the support costs (together with scarcer luxuries) means it can be a painful switch when you have towns and virtually no cities. I haven't seen it as terrible yet, but I have seen it cause me to question why I pushed so hard for an early switch. If you're building up forces for a mass upgrade and assault, then I think Republic's unit costs, combined with increased upgrade costs, can really make Monarchy a more interesting choice.

Catt

	07-01-2004 08:14									#20
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I think they do not suffer much of a delay when switch, even though not religious.

The AI has a bonus called "Max government transition time" starting at Monarch.
Monarch - 4
Emperor - 3
Demigod - 2
Deity - 2
Sid - 1

So that's quite a bonus they get, being able to - at the higher levels - switch multiple times and often still have less Anarchy than a one-switch human.


Edit: I didn't include Chieftan, Warlord, or Regent because they are set to 0 which usually(in programmerland) means not applicable, though I could be wrong.

	07-01-2004 09:42									#21
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Catt I just wait longer to switch to Republic so it is not so bad (unit cost). I do not beeline for republic either now as getting it will not do me that much good right away.

	07-01-2004 11:29									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Catt If you're building up forces for a mass upgrade and assault...

And when is that not the case?

* For me, at least.

* At Emperor or above.

* Given resource issues.

	07-01-2004 18:54									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Is it just me? I think Republic SUCKS coming out of Despotism.

The first week I got the game I started a govt balance thread arguing that one-switch policy had been reinforced, instead of democracy being made worth the switch in the late game. I also said I felt you couldn't go republic early enough after the change.

Many weeks on I stand by my posts in that thread, though I would probably downplay slightly some of the emphasis from the latter point. If you set out to conquer what you need early enough, and get enough cities, you can switch circa 500BC if you disband many old warrior MP. This can leave you a little stretched, so some care is needed, but its usually worth expending some effort to do it correctly to get out of despotism as early as possible. An early palace jump if often a useful aid.

On harder levels sometimes you just have to accept you ain't getting republic that early anyway...........often on Demigod or higher Monarchy then a representative govt later is best IMO.

	07-01-2004 19:18									#24
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Theseus,

I've probably been doing ok with early republic switching because I have not yet done the mass upgrade and kill thing in Conquests. I've played out 3 or 4 games, and done plenty of fighting... just later.

Given the bonus tech for philo thing, coupled with the addition of SGLs and the problems with the FP, I've gone back to being more of a peaceful builder type (at least in the early going). So when I switch over, my support costs aren't too bad, and are mostly due to workers

-Arrian

	08-01-2004 05:56									#25
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Arrian, you should be ashamed of yourself, you early builder you.