04-01-2004 21:57									#31
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Money is what makes it all possible. The side of peace and justice must have equal or greater resources than the side criminality or the whole society gets distorted and destroyed. Drugs are the biggest distorter in Columbia. If those resources could somehow be incorporated into the structure supporting the rule of law, the other criminal factions would quickly be defeated.

	04-01-2004 22:00									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc [quote]I don't think so. Because he after all represents the state. In fact your loyalty to that concept reveals your grotesque ideology.

Thanks for the "compliment" and for pulling rabbits out of your hat.

quote: Everything the state does is, if not right, then somehow on the way to being fixed. I note you say Columbia 'needs a ton of reforms.' Yet don't you think that there is perhaps a reason why these reforms have not been made?

Lots of reasons, but after reading the rest of your message......guess it's pointless to try and have a civilized debate with someone who keeps using veiled (and not so veiled) insults and unfounded accusations against you.

quote: It is as if this is due to some unfortunate accident, which can be fixed by the present government,

No, not by the present government.

quote: and that the present policy of expropriating the poor for the benefit of the already filthy rich is in fact not a part of a very deliberate plan.

I don't believe in conspiracy theories, thank you very very much. Not regarding Colombia, not regarding Iraq, not regarding almost anything else.

quote: I think you underestimate your ideological allies.

I am the ideological ally of no one, FYI.

quote: It must be some sort of deficient racism on your part, since after all they are only Indians, aren't they? Except the upper class.

Thanks for the second "compliment". Your kindess is fully noted.

It's funny that several of my acquaintances would indeed qualify as so-called "Indians" though....but I guess that doesn't matter either.

quote: Then you are horrified by the evidently stated goal of the FARC to bring down the state.

I'd have no problem if the FARC would just "bring down the state" or the current government. My problem is with the FACT that they would bring down everything else that smells "freedom" and "democracy" down with it and will replace it with a stalinist/castrist police state.

quote: This I don't understand. Of course it is. FARC is a revolutionary movement. In order to finance their arms purchases they are only doing what western Capitalist powers have done for ages. Controlling the drug trade. Why should FARC be more moral in their actions in achieving their aims? This would surely be self-defeating.

I presume you are of the Marxist Revolutionary tradition then, for which "the ends justify the means".

quote: Then you heap on accusations, but no evidence, that the FARC is guilty of atrocites too, which no doubt they are.

So what was your point here again?

quote: I would still say that if the poor man kills, steals and rapes this is an indefinately lesser crime than when the rich man does. This is because were the former is an act of desperation, the latter is based on greed and arrogance, which as you know is somewhat sinful, yet so dearly presented as virtuous in the corrupt societies of today.

Unfortunately, I believe in equality before the law. A crime is a crime.

quote: Now if it was not because certain Western governments are actively involved in supporting the Columbian government, Columbia would evidently fairly soon turn Communist.

Not going to argue the premise....but the prevention of such an outcome is far from a bad thing.

quote: One could ask if it would not make better sense to simply cut military support to Columbia and let the Columbians decide the issue for themselves?

As long as you would also cut back on drug purchases, go for it.

quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc Democratically elected you say. That might be, and surely the AUC (fascist paramilitary group) must be satisified by this. Their numbers have risen exponentially the last two years, and as this article states they have even been promised amnesty for their crimes against human rights

1.Nice to know that you get your info from sensationalist websites/tabloids, to put it vlightly.

2. Hold your horses on that "amnesty" accusations as

a) Nothing has, as of today, been legally decided regarding it and there has been a good amount of pressure and debate both inside and outside Colombia calling for serious modifications of the original project.

b) Even a partial pardon for SOME of their crimes would be no different than the pardons that are enjoyed by both current and past demobilized guerrillas.

quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed Hey, wait a second. THERE AREN'T ANY. No trade unions, no political parties near the centre, no willing reformers who represent the population against the dangerous elites.

So Colombia continues to live in the 80s-early 90s, trapped in an eternal loop with no way out, eh?

Too bad it's not looking like that, though it's interesting to know that you don't really check news too often....

	04-01-2004 22:07									#33
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You seem to have a problem with the comprehension of history and the fact that drug money is only a part of the problem. Drug money only became a factor in the late Seventies, the war started in the late Fifties. The same causes then are still behind the war, the ruling class using the government to crush everything that stands in their way.

If you took drug money out of the equation or simply moved it from the rulers of Columbia to their government, you would change nothing. All that would happen is that the FARC would lose some of its funding, leaving the people of Columbia at the mercy of the government yet again.

Historically, the more money the govermnet of Columbia has recieved from the U.S., the worse it has behaved towards its own people. Giving it the drug money would only allow it to free itself from what little restraint the U.S. occassionally attaches to the military aid.

Try and understand this very simply point. It is the government of Columbia that is doing most of the killing, most of the torture, and most of the driving people off the land. They are the enemy of the Columbian people.

	04-01-2004 22:09									#34
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A criminal government is not part of a structure that supports the rule of law.

	04-01-2004 22:09									#35
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Well, I fail to understand who people as sensible and smart as chevizt guevara are defending the FARCs. They're nothing but drug-dealers since many years ago... The best thing that could happen in Colombia is to get the Paramilitares and Guerrilla people either demobilized or jailed. Some paramilitares are demobilizing right now, and although Uribe has been acused to be a paramilitares' friend it doesn't seem that they're getting a "special treatment". I hope that in the future, the FARC, the ELN and the paramilitares will be defeated and the democratically elected goverment will take again control over all Colombia.

	04-01-2004 22:17									#36
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quote: Originally posted by pchang A criminal government is not part of a structure that supports the rule of law.

That's really irrelevent. How do you get rid of a criminal government? Well, it certainly isn't by supporting it. When a government really wants to stay in power it's very difficult to remove it. The only way to do so is through force of arms.

JCG, considering the type of economy and government the FARC set up in the areas of Colmbia they ruled, it's unlikely to be a classic Marxist state. More likely it will be something more mixed as we saw in Nicaragua. I wouldn't be too keen on their implimentation of democracy, but they can't do much worse the the murderous farce of a democracy they have now. Maybe if it was Sendero Luminoso, but the FARC is not a Maoist organization.

	04-01-2004 22:18									#37
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quote: Originally posted by JCG So Colombia continues to live in the 80s-early 90s, trapped in an eternal loop with no way out, eh? Too bad it's not looking like that, though it's interesting to know that you don't really check news too often....

Pop quiz: How many trade unionists were killed in Colombia in 2002? Exclude other paramilitary political killings, plus the 5000 or so "morality murders" they commit each year (killing of street children, homosexuals, prostitutes etc.).

	04-01-2004 22:24									#38
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quote: Originally posted by yaroslav Well, I fail to understand who people as sensible and smart as chevizt guevara are defending the FARCs.

That's because you aren't paying attention. The Columbian government is one of the worst in the world. It is among the most murderous, and possilby even rivals the Hussein government in Iraq in sheer barbarity. The fact that it is nominally democratic is meaningless. The government of El Salvador was democratic, but that didn't stop it from murdering 70,000 people in the 1980s. The government of Guatemala was called democatic, didn't stop it from murdering hundreds of thousands of its own people.

Of course, the Columbian government is qualitiatively different, in that the government actually changes hands between parties. The amount of control it excercizes over the military is about equal to that in most of Latin America, which is to say barely at all. (And for this reason, Costa Rica abolished its military 60 years ago, and was the only Central American country not to experience a coup between now and then.)

Furthermore, as I noted, the FARC does not engage in drug dealing. At worst, they allow it to take place, at best, the tax the profits of the drug lords and protect the peasant farmers from being ripped off by them.

	04-01-2004 22:24									#39
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara [quote]I'll deal with the third one first. Yes, it does happen, very rarely, that the FARC engages in an attrocity...Given that the U.S. may have killed as many as some seven to nine thousand civilians in two wars in the past couple years, we aren't really in much of a position to criticize the FARC when "collateral damage" occurs, no matter how horrifying.

Doesn't stop you or a lot of people from critizing the "collateral damage" of US military actions, so I don't see why the FARC should be given a free pass. And that's far from the "only" case, and you know that, not even the most recent one...are they all supposed to be "accidents"?

quote: As to number one, detailed analysis of the FARC-coca connection show that the FARC does not grow coca, nor do they engage directly in the coca trade. What they do do is protect coca farmers from the drug lords, ensure the drug lords pay a fair price for the coca leaves, and tax the drugs lords.

A couple of words:

1.Fernandinho

2.Laboratories.

quote: "Defenders" of the people should not be engaging in such activity, unless you're kidnapping government members or members of the ruling familes.

Which are far from their only targets. But it probably doesn't matter as long as you're not in their potential sights.

quote: In addition to these major charges, the FARC also is known to shang-hai people into service, use children as soldiers, and urban bombings.

Urban bombings which kill indiscriminately, but I suppose that's just another case of "collateral damage" for some....

quote: (as the government and the paras are effectivly allies)

Totally Fraternal Allies which have of course never hurt one another...even if HRW and AI disagree.

quote: The other side is the FARC.

"Which have never, ever driven peasants out of their land" and must be allowed to everything since they have "good intentions" that completely overrule any possible criticism.......but Bush must also have had perfectly "good intentions" in Iraq....

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Because the paras are basically a de facto force of the ruling classes of Columbia, and if not directly staffed with government soldiers (active and retirees), are actively aided by them, or turned a blind eye. The government transports the paras around the country and doesn't show up to protect villages when the paras are going on a rampage, though they show up ASAP when the FARC or ELN are in the area.

1. There are plenty of "paras" that have been formed and operate without such assistance.

Just as there are plenty of Colombian army soldiers that have never given such assistance.

But I guess it's better to just generalize and equate all of them in one big mass, eh?

2. You act as if there was never any combat between the government and the paras, or that they can be conveniently ignored. Not even the human rights groups claim that, which should tell you something.

quote: The government in Columbia is one of the worst in the world, mitigated not a whit by the fact that it is nominally democratic.

Yes, only "nominally".... so everything is fake and worthless and nothing ever changes not a single tiny bit so it's better to just scrap & burn everything down to ashes and put up a "DEMOCRATIC BOLIVARIAN PEOPLE'S REPUPLIC OF COLOMBIA" headed by a GREAT LEADER......

	04-01-2004 22:43									#40
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JCG:
You have misunderstood Chegitz's post. Che is not like Tripledoc: he doesn't whitewash the FARC of its crimes, far from it.
But he argues that the FARC is the least scummy group involved in the Columbian war.

	04-01-2004 22:46									#41
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Nice to see such a SOB captured. Great news for the Colombian people. Viva Colombia



PS: Why does some of you call the country Columbia?

	04-01-2004 22:54									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Chilean President PS: Why does some of you call the country Columbia?

Because I have no idea on how it is spelled in English

	04-01-2004 22:54									#43
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Spiffor: I'm not equating both of them, I just continue to disagree with some of his (Chegitz's) points, perhaps just as strongly.

Chilean President: They don't know how to spell correctly.... Nah, it's just that they're more used to seeing the name spelled like it's used in "British Columbia" and so on. It's still wrong though, Colombia is the official English term.

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara possilby even rivals the Hussein government in Iraq in sheer barbarity.

Now that is exaggeration.

quote: they can't do much worse the the murderous farce of a democracy they have now..

Can't really agree with you on this point, considering all the "revolutionary" purges, total press/media censorship and total political repression that will follow their rise to power.

That will make the situation just plain equal or maybe even worse.....but then the tables will turn, and all of you guys near/on the leftwing spectrum will say it's an "acceptable" situation.

quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed Pop quiz: How many trade unionists were killed in Colombia in 2002?

Plenty. Don't have the exact number handy, could dig it up if it really mattered...but, more importantly, even the "ESCUELA NACIONAL SINDICAL" (a sindicalist/union organization that collects such data) accepts that in 2003 that number was reduced between 65% and 80%.

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Drug money only became a factor in the late Seventies, the war started in the late Fifties.

Mid-60's if you want to be technical, unless you consider it an "extension" of La Violencia, which can arguably be traced back quite a long time too.

quote: Historically, the more money the govermnet of Columbia has recieved from the U.S., the worse it has behaved towards its own people.

People which, during 2003, enjoyed 30% less kidnappings, 40% less forced displacement, and 5x less guerrilla "raids" or "tomas" of towns.

quote: They are the enemy of the Columbian people.

You continue to totally equate the paras and the government, so that all accusation and info supplied by AI and HRW regarding the paras can be fully applied to the state, something which even they (human rights groups) do not do.

The enemy of the Colombian people is the conflict.

	04-01-2004 22:54									#44
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That's because you aren't paying attention. The Columbian government is one of the worst in the world. It is among the most murderous, and possilby even rivals the Hussein government in Iraq in sheer barbarity.

Are you miximg paramilitares' barbarities and goverments' barbarities? The colombia's goverment is far away from having clean hands, but among the worsts govs in the world... I doubt so.

Let see what HRW says:

quote: "Paramilitary groups allied within the United Self-Defense Forces of Colombia (Autodefensas Unidas de Colombia, AUC) commit massacres, selective killings, and death threats. These groups operate with the tolerance and often support of units within Colombia's military. There are numerous and credible reports of joint military-paramilitary operations and the sharing of intelligence and propaganda. Throughout Colombia, paramilitaries continue to move uniformed and heavily armed troops unhindered past military installations. Local officials, human rights groups, the public advocate's office, and even some police detachments regularly inform the appropriate authorities about credible threats by paramilitaries. Yet only rarely do military forces take effective action to stop paramilitary advances. While massacres, traditionally used by paramilitaries to spread terror, were less numerous in 2002 than in past years, the decrease appears to reflect a change in paramilitary tactics rather than a diminution in overall violence. Witnesses have described to Human Rights Watch how paramilitaries seized large groups of people, then killed individuals separately to avoid the incidents being recorded as massacres.

quote: Of course, the Columbian government is qualitiatively different, in that the government actually changes hands between parties. The amount of control it excercizes over the military is about equal to that in most of Latin America, which is to say barely at all. (And for this reason, Costa Rica abolished its military 60 years ago, and was the only Central American country not to experience a coup between now and then.)

You say that the amount of control is ... barely at all. But you blame the goverment for the aid that the barely-controled military has given to the paramilitares.

quote: Furthermore, as I noted, the FARC does not engage in drug dealing. At worst, they allow it to take place, at best, the tax the profits of the drug lords and protect the peasant farmers from being ripped off by them.

quote: As to number one, detailed analysis of the FARC-coca connection show that the FARC does not grow coca, nor do they engage directly in the coca trade. What they do do is protect coca farmers from the drug lords, ensure the drug lords pay a fair price for the coca leaves, and tax the drugs lords. I know this may be too fine a point for you to distinguish, however. I don't think drugs should be illegal, so I don't have a problem with this.

Sorry but that goes against any single line of info I've read. Can I ask you to provide me a link or a source for that?

quote: JCG: You have misunderstood Chegitz's post. Che is not like Tripledoc: he doesn't whitewash the FARC of its crimes, far from it. But he argues that the FARC is the least scummy group involved in the Columbian war.

IMHO he is wrong. The govt, democratically elected by the people, while not white-wash itself, it better that then terrorist paras and guerrillas.

	04-01-2004 22:57									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor JCG: You have misunderstood Chegitz's post. Che is not like Tripledoc: he doesn't whitewash the FARC of its crimes, far from it.

That's exactly what he seems to be doing.

	04-01-2004 23:00									#46
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quote: Originally posted by JCG Doesn't stop you or a lot of people from critizing the "collateral damage" of US military actions, so I don't see why the FARC should be given a free pass. And that's far from the "only" case, and you know that, not even the most recent one...are they all supposed to be "accidents"?

Actually, I tend not to criticize specifics, since civilian casualties will happen, unless they are blatent. I'm more critical of the methodolgy.

quote: A couple of words: 1.Fernandinho 2.Laboratories.

Being in FARC territory doesn't make them FARC property.

quote: Which are far from their only targets. But it probably doesn't matter as long as you're not in their potential sights.

Uhm, since I was the first person who brought it up, your point is asinine.

quote: Urban bombings which kill indiscriminately, but I suppose that's just another case of "collateral damage" for some....

See my above comment.

quote: Totally Fraternal Allies which have of course never hurt one another...even if HRW and AI disagree.

Even allies can fight. They aren't merely co-belligerents, given the high level of cross contaimination and cooperation. The fact that they sometimes fight has more to do with internal politics than the government turning a new leaf.

quote: "Which have never, ever driven peasants out of their land" and must be allowed to everything since they have "good intentions" that completely overrule any possible criticism.......but Bush must also have had perfectly "good intentions" in Iraq....

You really do have a penchant for putting words in people's mouths.

quote: 1. There are plenty of "paras" that have been formed and operate without such assistance.

Irrelevent.

quote: Just as there are plenty of Colombian army soldiers that have never given such assistance.

Again irrelevent. The Columbian army is also riddled with FARC supporters. It doesn't mean that, over all, the role of the military in Columbia is not a severely repressive and brutal one.

quote: But I guess it's better to just generalize and equate all of them in one big mass, eh?

It seems to work for you, doesn't it.

quote: 2. You act as if there was never any combat between the government and the paras, or that they can be conveniently ignored.

I never claimed it didn't happen. I just don't happen to think it's significant, given that most of the time the military is aiding them.

quote: Yes, only "nominally".... so everything is fake and worthless and nothing ever changes not a single tiny bit

I haven't seen much significant change in Columbia, no. The last President tried something exceptional, but given that he couldn't keep the military under control, did it make any difference? I'd have to say no. You're gonna have to make a case for things getting better if you want me to believe it.

quote: so it's better to just scrap & burn everything down to ashes and put up a "DEMOCRATIC BOLIVARIAN PEOPLE'S REPUPLIC OF COLOMBIA" headed by a GREAT LEADER......

It can't be much worse than things are now, and probably would be much better if history in Latin America is any guide, which it is.

	04-01-2004 23:12									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Because I have no idea on how it is spelled in English

no problem
sorry for this small threadjack, but where you from Spiffor? I always though you were French.

quote: Chilean President: They don't know how to spell correctly.... Nah, it's just that they're more used to seeing the name spelled like it's used in "British Columbia" and so on. It's still wrong though, Colombia is the official English term.

Well I saw a few times the name of Chile writen as "Chili" in english. although probably they were trying to write it as in French...

So, what does analyst says about this in Colombia. Do they spect more terrorist attacks or the beginig of peace negotiations?

	04-01-2004 23:12									#48
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quote: Originally posted by yaroslav Are you miximg paramilitares' barbarities and goverments' barbarities? The colombia's goverment is far away from having clean hands, but among the worsts govs in the world... I doubt so. Let see what HRW says: quote: "Paramilitary groups allied within the United Self-Defense Forces of Colombia (Autodefensas Unidas de Colombia, AUC) commit massacres, selective killings, and death threats. These groups operate with the tolerance and often support of units within Colombia's military. There are numerous and credible reports of joint military-paramilitary operations and the sharing of intelligence and propaganda. Throughout Colombia, paramilitaries continue to move uniformed and heavily armed troops unhindered past military installations. Local officials, human rights groups, the public advocate's office, and even some police detachments regularly inform the appropriate authorities about credible threats by paramilitaries. Yet only rarely do military forces take effective action to stop paramilitary advances. While massacres, traditionally used by paramilitaries to spread terror, were less numerous in 2002 than in past years, the decrease appears to reflect a change in paramilitary tactics rather than a diminution in overall violence. Witnesses have described to Human Rights Watch how paramilitaries seized large groups of people, then killed individuals separately to avoid the incidents being recorded as massacres. You say that the amount of control is ... barely at all. But you blame the goverment for the aid that the barely-controled military has given to the paramilitares.

Your quote supports my assertion that the government and the paras work together. If you are going to try and disprove me, using that quote isn't helping you.

quote: IMHO he is wrong. The govt, democratically elected by the people, while not white-wash itself, it better that then terrorist paras and guerrillas.

Question, what good is a democratically elected government that can't stop the military and police from massacres and extra-judicial killings? Answer, no good at all. If the government can't run the state, then it isn't really a government, is it? It's just an elected debating society. All real power in Columbia rests with the military and the police, both of whom are effectively beyond government control.

It's funny how the statisitics show masacres and kidnappings are down massively, mainly because the AUC has changed tactics. Hmmm, that must mean that the majority of the violence is done by . . . the FARC?!? It would seem to me that the 5,000 member paras (of whom the AUC is only one group) do far more damage to Colubmia than the three times larger FARC.

Columbian fun fact, the paras were started by Pablo Escobar. This, JCG, most likely accounts for government-para clashes. Despite being allied against the leftists, the government stil does some anti-drug work, which will bring it into conflict with the paras which are run by the drug lords.

	04-01-2004 23:28									#49
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara quote: Originally posted by yaroslav Are you miximg paramilitares' barbarities and goverments' barbarities? The colombia's goverment is far away from having clean hands, but among the worsts govs in the world... I doubt so. Let see what HRW says: quote: "Paramilitary groups allied within the United Self-Defense Forces of Colombia (Autodefensas Unidas de Colombia, AUC) commit massacres, selective killings, and death threats. These groups operate with the tolerance and often support of units within Colombia's military. There are numerous and credible reports of joint military-paramilitary operations and the sharing of intelligence and propaganda. Throughout Colombia, paramilitaries continue to move uniformed and heavily armed troops unhindered past military installations. Local officials, human rights groups, the public advocate's office, and even some police detachments regularly inform the appropriate authorities about credible threats by paramilitaries. Yet only rarely do military forces take effective action to stop paramilitary advances. While massacres, traditionally used by paramilitaries to spread terror, were less numerous in 2002 than in past years, the decrease appears to reflect a change in paramilitary tactics rather than a diminution in overall violence. Witnesses have described to Human Rights Watch how paramilitaries seized large groups of people, then killed individuals separately to avoid the incidents being recorded as massacres. You say that the amount of control is ... barely at all. But you blame the goverment for the aid that the barely-controled military has given to the paramilitares. Your quote supports my assertion that the government and the paras work together. If you are going to try and disprove me, using that quote isn't helping you.

The HRW quote provides a link between military and paras. I believe that this link exists regretabilly, but they are not the same institution, so I wonder if the figures you've provided us with are accurate or not. And the military is barelly controlled by the govt in your opinion, so then is no govt' fault, isn't it?

quote: quote: IMHO he is wrong. The govt, democratically elected by the people, while not white-wash itself, it better that then terrorist paras and guerrillas. Question, what good is a democratically elected government that can't stop the military and police from massacres and extra-judicial killings? Answer, no good at all. If the government can't run the state, then it isn't really a government, is it? It's just an elected debating society. All real power in Columbia rests with the military and the police, both of whom are effectively beyond government control. It's funny how the statisitics show masacres and kidnappings are down massively, mainly because the AUC has changed tactics. Hmmm, that must mean that the majority of the violence is done by . . . the FARC?!? It would seem to me that the 5,000 member paras (of whom the AUC is only one group) do far more damage to Colubmia than the three times larger FARC. Columbian fun fact, the paras were started by Pablo Escobar. This, JCG, most likely accounts for government-para clashes. Despite being allied against the leftists, the government stil does some anti-drug work, which will bring it into conflict with the paras which are run by the drug lords.

It's a goverment with problems about the control of (some elements of) the military. Just as many south-american govts. But that doesn't make them a govt as worst as Sadam or one of the worst goverments in the world.

And about your commentaries, AI says that the biggest part of kidnnappings are from the guerrillas' side. For the massacres I've no figures, but I think that a google search could provide us with them...

So let's summarize and see what we agree in and what we don't agree in, if you don't mind.

There are three players in this conflict

1) The state
2) The paras
3) The guerillas

There are alleged links between 1 and 2, specially between some elements of the military and some paras. This is to be corrected.

2 is clearly terrorist, drug-controlled (I suppose we agree on this).

3 is a bunch of criminals who kill people (I'm not including drug-control because we disagree on that ... BTW, what about the link I asked you? I don't want to urge you but I hope you'll understand that a thing that goes against anything I've read I needs a source to be believed).

It's about 1 that we don't agree. I say that there are links between the military and the paras, but that they are not the same thing. Do you think they are the same thing? The HRW's quote that I provided you with make differences between paras and military, although sometimes they work toghether But the point is that many sources separates paras and AI...

BTW - do you want me to search for a link about the FARC and the ELN being the main responsibles for the kiddnapping?

	04-01-2004 23:31									#50
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Chilean President: A strong FARC retaliation is expected.

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara [quote]Being in FARC territory doesn't make them FARC property.

Yet they still have fallen while protecting them, and have cooperated closely in the processing/shipment of drugs with this captured Brazilian drug lord and surely others still at large.

quote: Uhm, since I was the first person who brought it up, your point is asinine.

Maybe so, just had to "flesh it out" a bit.

quote: The fact that they sometimes fight has more to do with internal politics than the government turning a new leaf.

Just your interpretation, just as valid as mine (or anyone else's). Don't see much basis for limiting every action against them to "internal politics" myself.

quote: You really do have a penchant for putting words in people's mouths.

Happens quite easily when the thread isn't in a very "friendly" mood, so to speak, after all. Doesn't justify it, but that's the explanation.

quote: Again irrelevent. The Columbian army is also riddled with FARC supporters. It doesn't mean that, over all, the role of the military in Columbia is not a severely repressive and brutal one.

..If one were to fully equate the actions of paramilitaries with those of the army.

quote: It seems to work for you, doesn't it.

Actually, I don't see the FARC/trade unions/peasants etc. as "one big evil mass", nor have I typed anything to that effect, so it doesn't really apply.

In any case, my errors wouldn't justify yours, nor vice versa, even if, like I said above, that does happen sometimes in this thread....

quote: I never claimed it didn't happen. I just don't happen to think it's significant, given that most of the time the military is aiding them.

I didn't know there could even be estimations of such a thing....it is quite clearly accepted that most of the time the military isn't fighting them, but that isn't equivalent to actively "aiding them" most of the time, as you say.

quote: I haven't seen much significant change in Columbia, no. The last President tried something exceptional, but given that he couldn't keep the military under control, did it make any difference? I'd have to say no. You're gonna have to make a case for things getting better if you want me to believe it.

So you think that the peace process failed because Pastrana "couldn't keep the military under control"?

As far as "making a case"...for a start, how about

a)The Referendum was defeated.

b)Leftists and independents have been elected and taken charge as leaders in Bogotá and plenty of important regional positions, as of January 1 2004. None of them is dead yet (the same can't be said for all the candidates that were killed/threatened/kidnapped by FARC during the electoral campaign season itself).

c)Uribe's neoliberal ambitious economic policies have been severely limited by both congress and the constitutional courts, as was the Referendum itself and the same may also happen to the anti-terror and alternative justice bill.

d)There is growing pressure against the government for it to conclude a prisioner exchange with the FARC. Even if it doesn't happen in the short term, it is increasingly seen as a necessity.

e)The statistics I've quoted in the other posts (and others), which have been accepted even by union and human rights groups critical of the government.

f)There are still "peace feelers" with the ELN (one of their jailed leaders was freed quite a few weeks ago) and they haven't broken off contacts.

quote: It can't be much worse than things are now, and probably would be much better if history in Latin America is any guide, which it is.

We must be reading totally different history books then.

	05-01-2004 05:13									#51
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First of all the FARC are not drugdealers. They simply tax the drugs production. Naturally from a supply side economists point of view would decrase production. What it in reality does is that it increases production, because as the farmers have to pass some of the profit to the FARC they will naturally produce more in order to keep the profit equilibrium, much like the taxes paid to the Papacy in the middleages actually increased agricultural produce.

Secondly, as has been pointed out by Cheqitz who is the only one informed here as usual, the civil war in Columbia has existed since 1948. It sprung from a disagreement over social and economic policies between the liberals and the conservatives. The liberals became disaffected by the the conservatives' lack of will to compromise, and turned Communist. The FARC is the armed wing of the Columbian communist party. Similarly the conservatives turned to ever more radical methods.

Clearly the spectre of communism in America's backyard is a clear and present danger to the stability and order of the United States itself. In fact the development in Columbia shows that a situation of grave political inaction and hostility between the liberal and conservative side, can be radicalized. Considering that Columbia is also Catholic, and that this religion actually condones violence for the sake of justice, this is a dangerous development if the conditions for it were to spread northwards. One has only to think of the vast amount of immigrants to the United States from Central and South America. In fact it has been projected that at some point the majority of Americans will be Hispanics. It is therefore imperative for the United States, or rather the moneyed class there, to stamp out the last vestiges of the communist idea in South America. This is done through direct military intervention, financial support, coups, and propaganda. The stated goal of eradicating the drug trade is only a cover. In fact the drugtrade is only important insofar it will not be interrupted. As we have seen in Afghanistan, that country was invaded because the Taliban regime there were in fact striking down on the opium production creating an undersupply to the Western markets. This of course would have consequences for the stability of the Western regimes, since an absence of cheap drugs would make it hard to satisfy the craving of the population. Alos with mind numbing drugs the more sensitive citizens are able to held in check. Especially the young who might rebel, were they able to see through the charade. Now the drug trade in Afghanistan has risen sharply, and opimum trade is flowing as never before insuring stability and internal peace in the West.

And one more thing. The part of the atrocites atributed to the AUC is actually 80 percent. In the recent years the para military numbers have risen sharply to over 8000.
It seems to me that the government of Columbia have don't have their priorities straight. Actually it is more likely that this is part pf a plan.

Last edited by Tripledoc on 05-01-2004 at 05:33

	05-01-2004 05:29									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc Cheqitz who is the only one informed here as usual,

You realize that the way you wrote this, it leaves you out also.

	05-01-2004 05:40									#53
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You realize that the way you wrote this, it leaves you out also.

I admit that I knew very little of the specifics and complexities, but I had an overall intuitive understanding of the situation, which has only been strengthened.

Reading the thread I'll admit that JCG is informed on the subject too.

However I still have a problem with the fact democracy can be used as an excuse for all manner of crimes. And the fact that the paras have not killed enough liberals in municipal elections is not proof of the democratic credentials of the current regime. After all you might end up with a situation where every opposition to the last man will have to be assasinated before people will consider Columbia un-democratic (?!?)

	05-01-2004 07:22									#54
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quote: First of all the FARC are not drugdealers. They simply tax the drugs production.

'Course there's been evidence to the contrary. That's just their side of the story, bypassing the "two words" above (and many more to that effect).

quote: Secondly, as has been pointed out by Cheqitz who is the only one informed here as usual,

Informed? Certainly. Not going to deny he's informed (though I think I know too well the webpages he's usually quoting/paraphrasing from...just with a different mindset). Just not "the only one".

quote: the civil war in Columbia has existed since 1948. It sprung from a disagreement over social and economic policies between the liberals and the conservatives.

There are many theories/schools of thought/etc. regarding the exact dates and causes, so that's as good as pretty much any of them.

quote: The liberals became disaffected by the the conservatives' lack of will to compromise, and turned Communist. The FARC is the armed wing of the Columbian communist party. Similarly the conservatives turned to ever more radical methods.

Good for a wikipedia entry, but then again those just give an overall & sketchy picture of the situation. The dates of all those events are "stickied" together artificially (precisely through the lack of dates, to be more exact) and unrealistically.

quote: Clearly the spectre of communism in America's backyard is a clear and present danger to the stability and order of the United States itself.

Kind of hard to not care.

quote: Considering that Columbia is also Catholic, and that this religion actually condones violence for the sake of justice, this is a dangerous development if the conditions for it were to spread northwards.

I'm agnostic, but I don't really see the need for religion bashing here.

quote: And one more thing. The part of the atrocites atributed to the AUC is actually 80 percent.

You can round it up all the way if you prefer, as that's just an estimate anyways.

quote: In the recent years the para military numbers have risen sharply to over 8000.

Less than the 20,000 plus guerrillas still.

quote: Actually it is more likely that this is part pf a plan.

Not another "vast (US-)rightwing conspiracy theory" again....I skipped that part on purpose before, as you can see.

quote: I admit that I knew very little of the specifics and complexities, but I had an overall intuitive understanding of the situation, which has only been strengthened.

Yet that's precisely what is important, when it comes down to determining the strength of your arguments.

quote: Reading the thread I'll admit that JCG is informed on the subject too.

Plenty of people are informed on the subject, even if they disagree with you/me/anyone else.

quote: However I still have a problem with the fact democracy can be used as an excuse for all manner of crimes.

And I still have a problem with the fact that Communism or "The Revolution" can be used as an excuse for all manner of crimes.

quote: And the fact that the paras have not killed enough liberals in municipal elections is not proof of the democratic credentials of the current regime.

It is when you consider that's one of the main accusations put forth by your side of the debate....and it's the FARC which is doing such killing, ironically enough.

quote: After all you might end up with a situation where every opposition to the last man will have to be assasinated before people will consider Columbia un-democratic (?!?)

That's a wee bit ridiculous, of course....but it's kind of hard to accuse someone of being un-democratic when, just to give 1 example, leftist opposition figures aren't falling left and right but actually manage to get elected as mayor and councilmen of the capital city of Bogotá, and have also caused government initiatives to go down the drain instead of being automatically approved.

That didn't happen in Batista's Cuba nor in a ton of other places.

	05-01-2004 07:38									#55
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Death to the commies!

	05-01-2004 08:13									#56
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JCG. Now you are simply being a sophist.

And I don't think it is a 'vast conspiracy' as you say. It is simply how I think policies are being decided upon in Washington. I have no problem with an anti-communist agenda. After all the rich have to employ whatever means at their disposal to defend themsleves. It would be foolish to think that they would simply give all their wealth and power up without at least providing for a modicum of resistance. However I don't appreciate the sense of moral superiority they seek to inflict on me.

	05-01-2004 08:27									#57
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Didn't Colombia recently elect a hard line right-wing government to deal with the insurgency? FARC ought to ttry accomplish its aims politically. Yes, the situtation may be bad, but there is a civil war there and those often are rather brutal..

	05-01-2004 09:27									#58
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IIRC Columbia is a minor grower of cocoa, but due to its position between the major growing areas in Bolivia and Peru and the major markets in the US and Europe, has become the leading processor and distributor of cocaine.

	05-01-2004 09:29									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Death to the commies!

	05-01-2004 09:40									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove IIRC Columbia is a minor grower of cocoa, but due to its position between the major growing areas in Bolivia and Peru and the major markets in the US and Europe, has become the leading processor and distributor of cocaine.

Exactly!
Bolivia have the biggest cocaine-farms in the continent. And more than that, those cocaine farmers have huge political power. they even provoked the destitution of former President Gozalo Sanchez de Lozada... actually they provoked a huge bloody riot of over 2 months which lead to the president's destitution.

In the northern border of Chile, the Carabineros (the police force) have huge anti drug division to patrol the frontier. Some stupid people are saying that with the construction of a big wall, like the one Israel is constructing, all the illegal inmigration and cocaine traffic will end... dummies..


BTW, today is my birthday and I want a birthday thread plus a Post Count Boost.. is that possible?