 |
| |
|
| |
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
JCG
|
 |
between a rock and a hard place
Feb 2002
time: 00:33
|
|
Plenty of "small farmers" have been ejected from their lands in the "usual way", by BOTH paramilitary and guerrilla "landlords", even before the fumigations (which, IMHO, are mostly a crappy short-term solution ) ever existed....but of course, for some it's "convenient" to forget/forgive equivalent atrocities when the ones responsible are so-called "leftists".
quote:
But what about having your family members murdered and raped by rightwing socalled 'paramilitaries'. |
Just as bad as having your family members murdered and raped by leftwing socalled "guerrillas". Plenty of examples of that exist.
quote:
The easy way out is of course to take pleasure in the Western backed government having captured one of their leaders. |
You say "their" as if you could actually consider a terrorist truly representative...I guess Osama Bin Laden is the Muslim "representative" and "one of their leaders" too.
It's actually very funny in the case of 'Simon', considering he was a spoiled rich kid/businessman for the vast majority of his life....a member of the "oligarchy".
****. You could even argue that he and the rest of the top FARC leaders live in equivalent luxury conditions right now, thanks to drug profits.
quote:
And as you so succintly point out 'the other groups' are 'scum' too. |
Evidently.
quote:
Sadly they don't seem to be under quite the same heavy hand of justice, |
Evidently the vast majority of counterinsurgency operations are targeted against the guerrillas, the largest formations that are actively trying to BRING DOWN the state and (what little there is) democracy, but it's also true that the international media almost never transmits any of the "positive" result against the paramilitaries, even if they are fewer, they do exist, a quick look at the weekly Spanish-speaking press can confirm it.... but of course, they can often be "conveniently" ignored, I guess, for the sake of argument.
Besides, at least the paramilitaries are talking of demobilization right now, and already ~900 of their members have abandoned their arms as part of that process...whether it actually amounts to anything else is up in the air.....it smells of Caguan-type fiasco and certainly has a lot of related problems....but only time will tell.
quote:
unless that retribution is from the FARC of course. |
It's also funny that you would say that...considering that, for some people in Colombia, without being necessarily "landlords" nor "rich", the actions of the paramilitaries have also been a form of personal retribution against FARC abuses, because of the utter lack of state/police presence in their regions.
Both kinds of so-called "retribution" exist.
Doesn't make ANY of them any less "scum" though, from my point of view, in the end.
Does Colombia need a ton of social reforms, to put it extremely lightly? Yes.
Do those reforms have to come through murders, car-bombs, kidnappings, etc. culminating in the installation of a totalitarian regime? No.
There is always another way, and recent events in Colombian electoral history show that history doesn't have to forcefully repeat itself "ad infinitum" (if that were the case, then the Germans would still rather be ruled by Nazis or Communists right now, after the "failure" of the Weimar Republic), but that progress is being made, slowly (and prevented by the conflict itself from going any faster).
Last edited by JCG on 04-01-2004 at 09:36
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Tripledoc
|
|
JCG.
If the columbian President gets captured by the FARC would it be in good order to say, 'well that was one scumbag less' ?
I don't think so. Because he after all represents the state. In fact your loyalty to that concept reveals your grotesque ideology. Everything the state does is, if not right, then somehow on the way to being fixed. I note you say Columbia 'needs a ton of reforms.' Yet don't you think that there is perhaps a reason why these reforms have not been made? It is as if this is due to some unfortunate accident, which can be fixed by the present government, and that the present policy of expropriating the poor for the benefit of the already filthy rich is in fact not a part of a very deliberate plan.
I think you underestimate your ideological allies. It must be some sort of deficient racism on your part, since after all they are only Indians, aren't they? Except the upper class.
Then you are horrified by the evidently stated goal of the FARC to bring down the state. This I don't understand. Of course it is. FARC is a revolutionary movement. In order to finance their arms purchases they are only doing what western Capitalist powers have done for ages. Controlling the drug trade. Why should FARC be more moral in their actions in achieving their aims? This would surely be self-defeating.
Then you heap on accusations, but no evidence, that the FARC is guilty of atrocites too, which no doubt they are. I would still say that if the poor man kills, steals and rapes this is an indefinately lesser crime than when the rich man does. This is because were the former is an act of desperation, the latter is based on greed and arrogance, which as you know is somewhat sinful, yet so dearly presented as virtuous in the corrupt societies of today.
Now if it was not because certain Western governments are actively involved in supporting the Columbian government, Columbia would evidently fairly soon turn Communist. One could ask if it would not make better sense to simply cut military support to Columbia and let the Columbians decide the issue for themselves?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Tripledoc
|
|
Democratically elected you say. That might be, and surely the AUC (fascist paramilitary group) must be satisified by this. Their numbers have risen exponentially the last two years, and as this article states they have even been promised amnesty for their crimes against human rights. President Bush agrees.
http://www.prensarural.org/ww20031002.htm
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Dr Strangelove
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Whoha
No Sava, we need a total embargo, if people want to get stoned/high/whatever here, then they should have to buy American damnit! |
For some curious reason cocaine will not grow anywhere other than the mountains of South America. Towards the end of the nineteenth century, when cocaine was still legal and was the only effective topical anesthetic available there were numerous attempts by colonial powers to raise cocaine crops in Africa, Asia and North America. None succeeded, and no one knows why.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Buck Birdseed
|
 |
Khoon Ki Pyasi Dayan (1988)
Nov 2000
time: 05:33
|
|
Of course Colombia needs reform, and that can only be accomplished by the "clean" centre or centre-left politicians who're not tied up with either the FARC on one hand or the Drugs Cartels and corrupt business on the other.
Hey, wait a second. THERE AREN'T ANY. No trade unions, no political parties near the centre, no willing reformers who represent the population against the dangerous elites. And why not? CAUSE THEY'VE ALL BEEN BLOODY MURDERED BY THE PARAMILITARIES, for ****'s sake. Sorry I'm shouting, but the FARC are a relatively minor actor as far as political disruption is concerned. Paramilitaries kill over twice as many civilians every year, "the vast majority" according to Amnesty, in a country which has the highest political murder rate in the world, over 10 000 people a year if reports are to be believed. All of this, of course, is happening in collusion with the Colombian security forces and the army, which of course is funded by the US to the tune of $27 million a year.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Dr Strangelove
|
|
You know that guy used to play the holographic doctor on the Star Trek series Voyager. I guess that after the series was cancelled he just couldn't give up the high life. I wonder what he's shouting to the soldiers dragging him away? Probably something about what the Federation will do to them when he's reported to be missing.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
chegitz guevara
|
 |
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:33
|
|
I don't think so. For all the problems of the FARC, they are the lessor of three evils, the drug lord's paramilitaries being the worst, and only slightly in 2nd place, the government military, many of whom, if not active in the paramilitaries themselves, either aid them or turn a blind eye to their depredations.
What are the the main accusations leveled against the FARC? One, they are narco-terrorists. Two, they engage in kidnapping for profit. Three, the indiscriminately massacre civilians.
I'll deal with the third one first. Yes, it does happen, very rarely, that the FARC engages in an attrocity, the most famous being the packed church that was set fire. Of course, almost everyone says that was an accident, even the people who suruvived, occcuring during a fight between the FARC and the paras. Given that the U.S. may have killed as many as some seven to nine thousand civilians in two wars in the past couple years, we aren't really in much of a position to criticize the FARC when "collateral damage" occurs, no matter how horrifying.
As to number one, detailed analysis of the FARC-coca connection show that the FARC does not grow coca, nor do they engage directly in the coca trade. What they do do is protect coca farmers from the drug lords, ensure the drug lords pay a fair price for the coca leaves, and tax the drugs lords. I know this may be too fine a point for you to distinguish, however. I don't think drugs should be illegal, so I don't have a problem with this.
Finally, number two. The FARC engages in kidnapping for ransome. This is true. Nor is it mitigated by the fact that they usually will accept less than 10% of the demanded money, nor the fact that at least they aren't killing them outright, like the paras do, nor by the fact that kidnapping for ransome is a popular "pasttime" in Columbia. "Defenders" of the people should not be engaging in such activity, unless you're kidnapping government members or members of the ruling familes.
In addition to these major charges, the FARC also is known to shang-hai people into service, use children as soldiers, and urban bombings.
Ultimately, the major difference between the two sides (as the government and the paras are effectivly allies), is that one side is repsonsible for over 75% of the killings in Columbia and is responsible for driving millions of peasants off the land. The other side is the FARC.
|
|
| |
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:33.
Apolyton Time is 00:33. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
04-01-2004 06:52
|