05-01-2004 12:45									#1
	New City Walls rule? Get a bigger avatar today!

I have 3 trebuchets (6) bombarding a fortified spearman in a city on a hill with walls (4.5). On my 4th turn the final shot (12th) was the first to hit. Incredibly bad luck, or am I missing something?

	05-01-2004 13:01									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

With the new rules the first thing that should be hit would be the walls themselves. I don't know what the bombard defense of a wall is though. Sounds mostly like bad luck.

	05-01-2004 13:16									#3
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I didn't know if that was just for the Coastal Fortress or not. I had another hit the next turn (2 out of 15?) and the walls are still there. The effects did give a 'double hit' sound effect, but the graphics look the same.

I want 4 die-roll averaging now!

j/k

	05-01-2004 14:04									#4
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Snotty With the new rules the first thing that should be hit would be the walls themselves.

Actually, its just the opposite. The units are now hit exclusively until they are down to 1 hit point each. After this, then improvements are hit.

	05-01-2004 14:38									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Against ground artillery, wall will be the first thing got destroyed. After that is units then other improvement.

Against sea bombardment, it's the coastal fortress tales the first blow.

	05-01-2004 15:04									#6
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I've been playing the WWII in the Pacific scenario a lot and the first thing artillery does to the Chinese cities is destroy the walls.

It makes walls rather like the coastal fortress. The only thing they do is absorb the first shot. Perhaps not a problem in the early game (or against the AI at all) but by the time of cannon, and certainly artillery, walls are obsolete.

	05-01-2004 18:41									#7
	Remove this text

That seems pretty accurate to me. I can't imagine a WWII artillery-piece battery having much trouble going through 1400s stonework...

	05-01-2004 20:26									#8
	Increase Your PM Length

I recommend you read up about the experiences of the marines in Hue and have a look at the thickness of some of the stone-work around many of the walled cities before you say that.

	05-01-2004 23:14									#9
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I don't like the way costal fortresses work now. In the real world, sea fortresses were usually enough to stop a fleet from coming anywhere near the city, pretty much up until WWI. Generally the fleet would sink before they could take out the castle guns, though on occassion, there were some daring raids that zipped past the forts. Generally the way to take sea forts was to come at them by land, which is how the Japanese took Singapore.

	06-01-2004 02:30									#10
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

What coastal fort work at all? I agree they need a boost, as it it is they are not built.

	06-01-2004 02:31									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon That seems pretty accurate to me. I can't imagine a WWII artillery-piece battery having much trouble going through 1400s stonework...

It depends. During the Normandy invasion in WWII the US Army tried everything including airstrikes to try and take the old citadel at St Malo. In the end they had to bring up a couple of 8" long range guns and use them in a direct fire role.

During the capture of Cherbourg the US Army cracked the newer fortifications with massive air support but had to fight for the Napoleonic era forts around the harbour. It took 8 days to capture the town by which time the port had been completely demolished.

Walls and coastal fortresses should really do more than at present in the game.

	06-01-2004 03:28									#12
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Rommel2D I didn't know if that was just for the Coastal Fortress or not. I had another hit the next turn (2 out of 15?) and the walls are still there. The effects did give a 'double hit' sound effect, but the graphics look the same.

Try moving the mouse to the edge of the screen. It seems to not redraw unless it has a reason to. You can see it in action by turning 'show food and shields on map' in preferences on/off.

Did the enemy have the great wall? There's a funky bug involving its virtual walls.

From the editor walls have a bombard value of 8. Only a 43% chance of taking them down per hit with a treb. Still bad luck, but not quite so bad.

	07-01-2004 06:45									#13
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I don't like the way costal fortresses work now. In the real world, sea fortresses were usually enough to stop a fleet from coming anywhere near the city, pretty much up until WWI. Generally the fleet would sink before they could take out the castle guns, though on occassion, there were some daring raids that zipped past the forts. Generally the way to take sea forts was to come at them by land, which is how the Japanese took Singapore.

I agree that coastal fortresses pretty much suck as they are right now. Their current abilities include: absorbing sea bombardments to protect the units in the city (a successful hit destroys the fortress); and they have ZOC (i.e. they take pot-shots at passing ships). To improve them, the fortresses could take a shot at every enemy ship that moves to be within one tile of the city and/or take a shot at any ship in an adjacent tile that bombards the city. Oh, and give them a pumped-up, lethal sea bombard.

	07-01-2004 14:20									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Quoth Snotty: Did the enemy have the great wall? There's a funky bug involving its virtual walls.

Yes, I went back to the turn save to test and they had the Great Wall. I've noticed the screen updating problem (with map graphics like you mentioned, and also with population heads not reflecting luxury acquisitions/losses, and roads not being drawn during exploration). Here it didn't make a difference. The wall graphics never disappeared. On shots that did make a successful hit, there was either a single impact sound effect and a message that the attack on the enemy was unsuccessful, or a double impact sound effect and a point of enemy health removed from his bar.

So the new GW provides an indestructable wall to all cities? If a shot beats the 8 defense number (is this multiplied by terrain?), the same attack must succeed in a second 'roll' against the defending unit? The next subsequent attack must again penetrate the wall and make a second 'roll' to hit, even if it is later in the same turn? Did the GW go from one of the weakest wonders to the strongest?

I went back again and tested some more. I was into the upper 20s of attempted attacks with my trebuchets without landing a single point of damage on the defending spearman. A few were apparently 'wall' hits, but subsequent attacks were no more successful. I don't know what the bug is here, but those walls don't seem very "virtual".

	07-01-2004 16:17									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I have no major problem with the city walls, but the coastal forts are next to useless in game terms. While you would have to take them out to get at the city itself, they are pretty easily overcome (you can always just keep shooting), and I have yet to ever really see the ZOC in action.. they need to shoot back at all attacking ships automatically and ZOC the passer-bys.

But while they are useless, I can't say that they cost enough in game terms to justify having limitless effective pot shots at fleet movements right now, especially since the computer just runs away with its injured boats. Iron and salt you should need anyway, if you are using them to defend your ports, you're probably not winning. 40 shields and two roads in order to get kills of boats worth triple (or more) that, something doesn't add up there. One other idea would be for coastal forts to add D against marine landings. .which they did in civ2, not sure if they still do or not. .Not much of a bonus, but it gives you a reason to blow one apart if you like using marines.