05-01-2004 23:36									#1
	I-league/minor race question Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I was playing with all the major races at the lowest difficultly. I was on the verge of a culture victory when I was drawn into a war with the I-league. They only had 4 or 5 planets, never built a resource or galactic wonder. Some how they had a ton of cash and they were ahead of me (and eveyone else) in science. They had about 20 dreadnauts to my similar numbers of battleships.

I'm trying to figure out how they got ahead of me. How did they get all the cash and build a huge fleet? (One obvious big mistake I made was ingoring the progress of all the minors)

btw: I had to resign because I could not mass enough fleet strengh to even take out one Dreadnaut. I lost a stack of 3or4 with a full stack of other ships to two of his ships. Did not even scratch the paint.

So any thoughts?

	06-01-2004 02:10									#2
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Were you using the 1.13 version(latest) of Galciv? I've only played a half dozen or so games and haven't encountered the I-League yet, but the minors do expand some now and seem to build Trade goods and Wonders like crazy in the 1.13 version. The thing I've found is that they will never declare war on you and don't count against you in a cultural victory. My strategy has been to trade with them as much as possible and let the other major civs get into wars with the minors. Then when one of the majors gets weakened I'll take advantage and take some worlds especially if they have been hostile or threatening in the early game.

As for how they got such a big tech lead, I dunno how but the minors in my early games are building Trade goods and Wonders sometimes when I'm several techs away from starting them.

	06-01-2004 03:29									#3
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Yes, latest version. This was the bigest map size I ever played so this was the deepest I've ever gotten in the tech tree. (Generally, I like to expand to as many stars and specials as I can. Then I "culture bomb" with those bases. Building additional bases as necessary.)

Another thing I noted is that the minors did not flip to me. I had several of the major's planets flip. But no minor race planets.

I got into the war because my ally dragged me into it. I wish I had been given the perference to honor or ignore the treaty.

So what does it take to kill a dreadnaut?

	06-01-2004 04:24									#4
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

http://www.galciv.com/metaverse/simulator.asp

This is a battle simulator that you can matchup various ships and do 100...1000...10,000 battles and get info on % victory and how many attackers it might take of a particular ship with long odds. I normally have had DeathKnights do ok against Dreads when behind in tech, but they are not listed in this simulator prolly since they were added I think in the free expansion. Also one game I had the luck trait and found a couple of Rangers and they saved me when it came time for war. Most likely if you're out teched in military I would fight a defensive war and have your starbases with full defense and military improvements and let them beat on your starbases and hope to even the numbers some. You'll prolly still lose some starbases, but like you said you weren't scratching the paint on offense.

	06-01-2004 09:00									#5
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In theexpansion the I-League and most of the minor races engage heavily in trade. They become quite effective at buying techs that they desire. The I-League suprised me not to long ago as well. Looking at previous saves, it appears that their trade network was quite robust.

	07-01-2004 17:16									#6
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I know that in the game I just finished I wouldn't want to tangle with the i-league...

The thing about minor races is that they tend to stockpile a lot of ships, considering that they never get constructors and only get a few colony ships...

And, of course, in a big galaxy size the i-league, in particular, can get bloody big just from all the defections.

Also, I have noticed that Minor races will sometimes culture-flip, but it really takes a lot more effort than for a major player.

	07-01-2004 21:00									#7
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I'm still amazed they passed me in technolgy. I did not trade any techs with them. (or anyone else...). I did sell some of my propritary trade goods.

I had freighters going to far planets and had a lot of aliens send freighters to me. I don't think I could get much more cash from trade. (I had lots of trade specials on my star bases)

Basically, The I-League could take out every one else in the galazxy at this point. They need a promotion from "minor" race.

I guess next the barbarians will take over my Civ III game. Or those three caveman natives on a planet in MOOII will conquer the galaxy.

	08-01-2004 01:15									#8
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In my current game several minors have expanded to 3-4 systems and have 50+ ships of which many are Dreadnaughts. The Torians surrendered their last system to the Altarians and the Yor surrendered to the Dregins already. To me this needs to be tweaked abit. Minors should be limited to not building Wonders or Trade goods imo, that way they wouldn't be able bankrupt the other majors in cash and tech for Trade good deals. Also the minors need to have some sort of limits on tech and ships or more support costs for military than they do now...thus the term "minor". It really hurts the game that these so called "minors" are so developed and the so called "majors" are gone before mid game.

Other things that would really be nice is to not have the UN Planets be able to meet until all the majors are known to one of the other majors. Then have one of the majors need to call the council(similar to Smac), the way it is now is fairly unrealistic.

I guess the game is constantly changing, so there's maybe hope.

	09-01-2004 02:46									#9
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quote: Originally posted by stuntman19 Other things that would really be nice is to not have the UN Planets be able to meet until all the majors are known to one of the other majors. Then have one of the majors need to call the council(similar to Smac), the way it is now is fairly unrealistic.

This would indeed be a nice change indeed.

	10-01-2004 00:46									#10
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As far as I know, the minors' ai doesn't change depending on the level of intelligence of the majors' ai (except on maso to avoid them becoming cash-cows).

So they were probably ahead of everyone because they were not as dumb as the other ai's. Ai's get penalties on the lower difficulty levels. The I-League probably didn't get them, so they outpaced all the ai's in tech. It's likely you were outpaced too because of lack of tech trading and your not trying to get further ahead from the ai's (since you must play the game a bit before you can).

	28-01-2004 02:44									#11
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare As far as I know, the minors' ai doesn't change depending on the level of intelligence of the majors' ai (except on maso to avoid them becoming cash-cows). So they were probably ahead of everyone because they were not as dumb as the other ai's. Ai's get penalties on the lower difficulty levels. The I-League probably didn't get them, so they outpaced all the ai's in tech. It's likely you were outpaced too because of lack of tech trading and your not trying to get further ahead from the ai's (since you must play the game a bit before you can).

Difficulty levels do not affect minor races , thus on low levels they are more powerful races than the 'major' races initially. In addition they usually have some of the best star systems. The question is why did you let them get so advanced.

In the lowest levels it should not be very hard to stay above the minor races as far as tech is concerned. As for dealing with the I-League (a.k.a the Kiwi's) the best way to deal with them is to start trimming them with frigates and battlecruisers and to follow up with Battleships if needed.

If combat effetiveness is truly needed then take your best Survey ship from exploring and send them to the attack (by then your SS should have at least 80hp and a 12/24/7 rating) If it truly looks to be rough then build a starbase in their sector and load it up with battle, defense and repair improvements.

Also; do not allow the minor races to control the wonders and the trade goods. You should bild them before the minor races (if you have a good or wonder that you can purchase outruight then do so)

Probably the Biggest mistake that people are making is that they don't change the sliders (the origional settings are way to low) . In the beginning of the game I usually run my spending level at 75-80% and my tax rate at 70%. I have my research set at 30% and both military and social spending at 35%. Don't forget to build starbases and to improve them with Industrial modules. Also moving to research Fusion Powerplant is of vital imporance, even more so for your economy than for production.

	31-01-2004 19:03									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

It looks like they are adding options to allow Minors to be removed from the game, and will also make them unable to build wonders or trade goods.

Both are absolutely necessary for player-made scenarios and campaigns, and good steps regardless.

	31-01-2004 20:58									#13
	Remove this text

I don't know if I would remove the minor races from a game that I play. I think they add an interesting component. The problem is when they become unbalancing compared to the major races. Somehow an I-League that is more powerful than the Yor or Drengins just doesn't sit right.

	01-02-2004 00:21									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I think the minors aren't removable, but you can prevent them from expanding.
The I-League or Fundies could be as strong as the Yors in my opinion. They are 'special' minors. Alexians or Carinoirds should not, however.