08-01-2004 04:19									#211
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who's to say Germany couldn't eat either of these?

in 1939

	08-01-2004 04:48									#212
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quote: I think post-modernism is about the spleen in the face of absurdity; i.e. capitalism's driving force is profit, which is quantitative in its nature, and thus necessarily unsatisfying.

To you.

	08-01-2004 06:03									#213
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion 1914: Germany USA UK France Japan Austria Russia Turkey Argentina

Wow! I didn't know that they won that war? Imagine that, Imperial Germany being so magnanimous in victory that they gave back Alsace-Lorraine, gave away western Prussia and Danzig, invited allied troops to hang out in the Rhineland, and donated millions of marks to the allied countries. Their generosity could only have been exceeded by that of their gracious ally, Austria.

	08-01-2004 06:05									#214
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Wow! I didn't know that they won that war? Imagine that, Imperial Germany being so magnanimous in victory that they gave back Alsace-Lorraine, gave away western Prussia and Danzig, invited allied troops to hang out in the Rhineland, and donated millions of marks to the allied countries. Their generosity could only have been exceeded by that of their gracious ally, Austria.

	08-01-2004 07:46									#215
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1. USA
2. Germany
3. France
4. UK
5. Japan
6. China
7. Russia

The pickings become pretty slim after this. Yea, India is big, but it hasn't done anything significant in the last century. Italy would have an excellent chance of defeating it in a war.

And I do realize that 2-6 can be in pretty much any order, depending on what you're taking into consideration. USA is a clear 1, and Russia is a clear 7.

[insert obligatory arguments about how China and India have lots of people and kick ass]

Who would you pick to win in a fight: an Abrams, or 50 virtually untrained people, thirty of whom have rifles?

Last edited by Jaguar on 08-01-2004 at 08:00

	08-01-2004 08:05									#216
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Two that should be at least in the top 15 are Brazil and Switzerland, but the former is only a "regional power" and the latter is "strong but not at all influential."

	08-01-2004 08:23									#217
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quote: Yea, India is big, but it hasn't done anything significant in the last century.

Though its now beginning to suck up US jobs.

India is quickly becoming one of my favorite nations

	08-01-2004 08:27									#218
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India has a great education progam, it ain't doing to bad.

Bought time they started teaching the billions of ppl they have there. There are probably some really awesome minds amongst that hell hole.

I have come to like S. Korea as well, and I think Hong Kong is a good example of what happens when you unleash the minds of the Chinese.

The whole Asian content seems to be an exploit are of expertise...

Personally, I like the fact that skilled labor jobs are finally heading that way apart from sweat shop jobs.

I am in Manufacturing, so it doesn't really affect me more than it already has...

	08-01-2004 08:28									#219
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The US, France and the UK are alone in the ability to send significant military forces overseas by themselves- by this definiton only they are world powers- with the uS way ahead. If the ability that counts it o vaporize any spot on earth with only a half hour notice, only the US and Russia count. The fact is that military definitons for a great power are not that good- after all, in 1941 the US was , besides the navy, a military second rate power. China's eocnomy is the rising star, and all of east asia is slowly gravitating towards it.

13th for the records. Yes 12 countrys had a better military than us in Dec. 1939. By Dec 6th 1941 We were still way way behined the other 12. The B-17, 24, 25 were just starting to be built. Our best fighter was just starting, P-38. The P-40 was our main airplane of the day. The Navy had some F4F Wildcats. In 3 years 8 mos later, we were the biggest and best military in the world.

	08-01-2004 08:35									#220
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quote: India has a great education progam, it ain't doing to bad.

It has a great tertiary education programme, because of the caste system.

But it still has a dismal literacy rate, especially for women.

China, on the other hand, took the opposite approach, and concentrated on primary education. Who's doing better?

	08-01-2004 08:38									#221
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USA is so powerful it needs more slots

1 USA
2 USA
3 USA
4 USA
5 UK

	08-01-2004 08:38									#222
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quote: Originally posted by Japher India has a great education progam, it ain't doing to bad. Bought time they started teaching the billions of ppl they have there. There are probably some really awesome minds amongst that hell hole. I have come to like S. Korea as well, and I think Hong Kong is a good example of what happens when you unleash the minds of the Chinese.

In the big cities India is doing OK, but go out in the what we would call small towns and they have not change much in the last 50 years.

Remember Hong Kong had the British for 97 years to help out. And just last year the boys in .Peking try to impose hard rule.

	08-01-2004 09:44									#223
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quote: USA is so powerful it needs more slots

	08-01-2004 09:53									#224
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman But it still has a dismal literacy rate, especially for women.

However one does have to consider that, especially in Southern India, some schools don't teach Hindi but only their own local languages.

And yes, much of the Indian population isn't that bright, the ones that are (and there are PLENTY, trust me) are incredibly bright.
Which is why I get such amusement when Americans try to protray Indians as being backwards and all they can do is run a fastfood chain etc etc....

Aren't I jingoistic about India?

	08-01-2004 10:15									#225
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar However one does have to consider that, especially in Southern India, some schools don't teach Hindi but only their own local languages. And yes, much of the Indian population isn't that bright, the ones that are (and there are PLENTY, trust me) are incredibly bright. Which is why I get such amusement when Americans try to protray Indians as being backwards and all they can do is run a fastfood chain etc etc.... Aren't I jingoistic about India?

Maybe because your Indian

	08-01-2004 10:27									#226
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quote: actually the reason why we paid for RN dreadnaughts, and did not construct our own navy.

You forget about the BC submarine fleet at the start of the first World War.

	08-01-2004 12:21									#227
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Are you talking about sunken fishing boats?

	08-01-2004 19:15									#228
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris The US not hegemonical? Seriously, I think it is, if we look at the success they have in lifting trade barriers. I don't want to debate AGAIN if this is good or bad to the rest of the world, but using force and diplomacy to impose your agenda is being hegemonical- whatever the consequences. Say the USSR had not fallen, and that in most countries the communist guerillas had won (which is not the case). Of course, the Soviets would say "communism is a done deal, it is the winner system, and we are not being hegemonical because what we're doing is good anyway". BZZZZT wrong. If you claim that democracy is a done deal, then you are postulating the END of history and the beginning of 'post-history'. So far, there are no strong arguments to demonstrate that 'democracy/capitalism' is the ultimate system by which humans have found common ground for truth and efficiency. It is highly probable that within a two centuries or longer timeframe, a new system will rise and supplant the last one, just as things have been since 3000 BC. My question now: is China the last great empire of the democratic/capitalist tradition, or the first empire of the [insert semantico-sociological theory here]. My intuition on this (it is embryonic) is that possibly the end of history as we know it, or at least the coming of a new age, will come with an unified Earth government that undergoes serious space colonization. China might or not be the unifying power behind this- as 'power consolidation' is about a stronger force reuniting weaker ones long enough for the members to melt in a new nation (the birth of European identities followed this pattern during the Middle Ages up to the creation of a national identity). I think post-modernism is about the spleen in the face of absurdity; i.e. capitalism's driving force is profit, which is quantitative in its nature, and thus necessarily unsatisfying. Nationalism-imperialism and evangelization (both children of cultural relativism) are probably over. What will be humanity's next qualitative goal? (this is where space colonization might come in)...

Its the end of history, as Fukiyama says, in the sense that there is no competitive ideology anymore. I would venture that a slightly more protectionist trading system than advocated by the US, or controls on short term financial flows, as advocated by Malaysia, does NOT constitute an alternative ideology, in the way that Communism and Fascism once did. As FF says, these, like disputes about the extent of the social welfare state, are not world historical issues. Universal suffrage my only be 200 or so years old, but the broader outlines of a tolerant liberal society have been developing for at least 400 years. And there is no prospect of returning to a limited suffrage society - the drive for individual dignity and equality before the law, which are the driving forces of liberalism, not profit, prevent that. Perhaps a new ideology will arise - one could imagine that democratic liberalism will fail to deal with issues relating to sentient machines, for example - but there is no particular sign of that happening in China any time in the near future. China may not be the last dominant power - why should the cycles of national power end? but in all likelihood it, at least, will arise to dominance as a liberal democratic power.

	08-01-2004 19:19									#229
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman It has a great tertiary education programme, because of the caste system. But it still has a dismal literacy rate, especially for women. China, on the other hand, took the opposite approach, and concentrated on primary education. Who's doing better?

China took off economically starting in the early '80s, when Deng adopted quasi-liberal economics. India didnt liberalize till the '90s, and so its takeoff began later.

BTW, i thought the top-heavy Indian educational system was a legacy of the Brits.

	08-01-2004 19:21									#230
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar However one does have to consider that, especially in Southern India, some schools don't teach Hindi but only their own local languages. And yes, much of the Indian population isn't that bright, the ones that are (and there are PLENTY, trust me) are incredibly bright. Which is why I get such amusement when Americans try to protray Indians as being backwards and all they can do is run a fastfood chain etc etc.... Aren't I jingoistic about India?

Speaking of language, one of India's advantages is widespread use of English, which makes it naturally more open to the world service economy and world science, and culturally closer to the declining dominant power.