06-01-2004 05:56									#1
	Ending an Alliance? Tired of ads?

In previous games I'd had a lot of trouble with signing peace treaties when I was meant to be in an alliance and getting a bad rep for it, so I decided to be extra careful in a game I was playing today.
I was at war with England and roped in France and Netherlands into alliances against them. After what seemed like more than twenty turns later, I was at the stage where I wanted to end the war, so before signing a treaty I went back to Netherlands and France. I had a look at our Active deals and there was Peace Treaty and Military Alliance vs. England. There was no number in brackets which means that the number of turns have passed but we haven't broken the deal yes? At least thats how it works for Peace treaties... So I clicked the alliance to end it, and the Netherlands declared war on me! Same thing with France.
So what did I do wrong? Was the deal not actually over? I thought if it was still running there'd be a number in brackets for how many turns remain. Is there any easy way to keep track of these things because I always end up breaking treaties and things when I don't mean to and having everyone on my back.

	06-01-2004 06:01									#2
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Did you perhaps break the peace treaty by accident instead of the military alliance? That is the only thing I can think of off hand.

Once there are no numbers next to the deal then it is safe to break with no global rep hit, but I can't think of any reason other than breaking the peace treaty why those two would both declare war on you.

	06-01-2004 06:13									#3
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Nope I'm positive. Thats what I thought might have happened with the Netherlands, but then when I went to end the alliance with Franc it happened exactly the same.

	06-01-2004 06:50									#4
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Did you give them gpt or lux for the alliance? It is unusual for the AI to not have made peace by then.

If you just made peace with Engalnd, then it would have been fine. I mean France would not have declared war.

	06-01-2004 07:13									#5
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I'd given them a tech for it. I should have just made peace with english, just in previous games I got stung for doing that when my alliance hadn't run out yet...

	06-01-2004 07:31									#6
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well, actually if there is no number visible, it means there is ONE more turn to go.

Try it.

	06-01-2004 10:51									#7
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I don't recall ever having anyone declare war after I make peace with a civ that I had alliances against. I never went in and canceled the alliance either.
You could take a rep hit, but I never concern myself about that. I am not much on being on good terms.

	06-01-2004 12:00									#8
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If a treaty still has turns on it, it won't let you cancel it - you'd have to forcibly break it. I cancel alliances all the time, but it doesn't end up in immediate war...*ponders*...actually it does, but I start them

Anyway.

You may wish to fill the 'always renegotiate deals' in, so that when the 20 turns are up, you'll get reminded. Normally it goes a turn over, , but on the whole it works

	06-01-2004 20:26									#9
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I've cancelled alliances like that many times (that's the way you need to do it in order to get out of a war and not screw up your reputation). I think they declared war for other reasons (probably being allied with you was the only thing keeping them from attacking you).

-Arrian

	06-01-2004 20:32									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I've cancelled alliances like that many times (that's the way you need to do it in order to get out of a war and not screw up your reputation). I think they declared war for other reasons (probably being allied with you was the only thing keeping them from attacking you). -Arrian

Arrian has a point there. Was your position, military might, resource collection inferior to France and/or the Netherlands in any way? Those civs may have been waiting for the chance to bop you around a bit without a rep hit. Funny though because the ai usually doesn't care about reputation unless they are going for a UN victory.

	06-01-2004 21:37									#11
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Maybe the alliance has nothing to do with it at all.

I've tried alliances to avoid AI sneak attack (saw a stack coming, so I signed an alliance with that civ against a civ I was already fighting) and failed. I got hit anyway (but that civ is now screwed, because they've got a 2-front war to deal with).

-Arrian

	06-01-2004 22:44									#12
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steoc4,

When you looked at your active deals w/ France and Netherlands, and clicked on the "Alliance vs England", did the Peace Treaty also come-up in the window? If that was the case, you can remove the "Alliance", but need to leave the Peace Treaty (may even have to renegotiate it).

Also check w/ your advisor. If he says something like, "This will cause a war," then you need to try and leave that in the deal.


Steven

	07-01-2004 18:02									#13
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If an AI civ had bought an alliance from you with gpt or lux then it would be deterred from declaring war until after the deal had run its course. But that was not the case. So I doubt an explanation which relies on coincidence. There seems to me to be much more chance that the declarations against you were caused by your actions.

Difficult as it is to figure the mechanism out.

Incidentally I play vanilla civ3 and have yet to figure out how to cancel agreements. If I have a mutual protection pact or an agreement to allow access to territory and it has run the 20 turn course what exactly do I do to cancel?

From what issaid above I go to my diplomacy screen and click on the "show all" button for treaties. But what do I click on next? The coloured line which links me to the civ leader with whom the agreement is maintained or what?

	07-01-2004 18:31									#14
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You need to actually contact the civ (ctrl-D to get the list of civs to talk to, or double-click on the leaderhead in the F4 diplomacy screen). Go to the 'propose a deal' section as if you were negotiating a new deal. Down the botton you will see some words: "new" (in the middle) and "existing" (or something like that - bottom right). Click on the "existing" option, and it gives you a list of deals that are already in place - including a peace treaty. A number in brackets indicates how many turns (out of 20) the deal has left - these can't be broken except by losing a trade route or declaring war. Deals without numbers can be cancelled straight away - click on e.g. the MPP deal, and it will come up as negotiating a new MPP deal. Just click on it to remove it from the table, and it is gone.

	07-01-2004 18:32									#15
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oops Vulture beat me to the explaination!

	07-01-2004 22:07									#16
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IIRC is called "Active".

	08-01-2004 20:38									#17
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My 2 cents about alliances: When negotiating an alliance with a more powerful civ, always give gpt or resources - never give gold, tech, or anything else that is paid in full. All civs will look to break an alliance with you after 10 turns if someone tempts them. When they evaluate their current alliance to you, if all they see is the alliance plus them giving you gpt or resource they will look to get out. They forget about what you have paid in full already.

	08-01-2004 21:20									#18
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Hell, I've seen a civ I've paid off for an Alliance quit on me in less than 5 turns.

I once saw an AI civ start a war, sign an alliance bringing in a different civ, and then make peace, leaving its "ally" to actually do the fighting. All in the same turn. That was dear Queen Lizzie, btw.

-Arrian

	09-01-2004 11:29									#19
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Isn't it so that you gain temporal positive rep with your aliies for killing enemy units etc and you don't get the negative rep for rasing cities etc. But, when cancelling the alliances all the positive rep you had goes away and you get the rep hit for rasing all those cities. So the didn't declare since they liked you but after the cancellation they got really angry at you and therefore declared war.

Someone had a thread about how your attitude changes with the AI with alliances and I think that this was (aprox.) how it went.

	09-01-2004 15:57									#20
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Thanks for the help, Vulture.

I did not know that killing enemy units raises rep with an ally - but it explains how the Chinese were suddenly "gracious" towards me in a recent game. A noticeable change from their usual "furious".

	09-01-2004 22:00									#21
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It's a good model,based on things such as WWII where after the war, the USA and USSR hated each other.

	09-01-2004 22:25									#22
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Through the “Preferred Options” I have all my deals set to automatically renegotiate. IIRC, what I have noticed a handful of times when checking to see how many turns are left in a deal (alliance specifically), there seems to be a “zero” turn which does not show numbers in the brackets, but only the alliance itself. If I make peace with the country we are both warring with at that moment, the AI I have an alliance with flies into a fury. But when I reload, then end that turn, the AI I have the alliance with will pop up to renegotiate between that turn and the next. So, I've come to speculate that there is a half turn lag (or as I said above) some sort of "zero" turn.

Has anyone else noticed this?