07-01-2004 06:08									#1
	How the GWT/GCA vs. CGN war will likely shape up Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I think that we need to start thinking of this and seeing what we can figure how GWT/GCA is likely to move forward in their war against CGN. This thread will be used as a thought exercise of possible tactics, manuvers and dirty tricks that the GWT alliance will attempt to use against CGN.

One reason that I think that we need to start examining this more closely, is so that we can get an idea (based on the actual upcoming events) how they think. With that knowledge, we can use that to our benifit, when it comes time for us to take them on.

E_T

	07-01-2004 06:14									#2
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To start this off....

I beleave that GWT will first sortie against the CGN chokepoint cities and try to draw as much of CGN's land forces to that geographic point. Afterwards, they will make several galley landings on CGN's NW coast to divide their attention. At that point in time, GCA will enter with their UU and GWT will follow up with Ansars. Then, after destroying the majority of CGN's Armies, will quickly sweep though and take as much as they can, as fast as they can. CGN will lose and CGA will then either be gifted the new lands or quickly destroyed by GWT.

E_T

	07-01-2004 11:50									#3
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Ambitious, aren't we? This isn't 1940 ya know.

I believe GWT will make one massive push on one front, probably in the east. I highly doubt any amphibious landings will be attempted. CGN should have enough strength to deter this (if just barely). Even if they lose the frontier cities, they can fall back to the chokepoints, and make it nearly impossible to break through. Even if they should, GWT would still be far from CGN's core and CGN could mount one more counter-offensive.

Basically, I think this war will likely be a (very bloody) stalemate.

	07-01-2004 16:13									#4
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Can someone post a map?

	07-01-2004 21:00									#5
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Yes very interesting but I agree with OPD we need to get some maps up.

Do we know the relative strenght of GWT to CGN?

	08-01-2004 02:12									#6
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This is the best that I can do and still have the city names with the pops available to read.

* E_T admits that he's no Aro...



You can also download it and make any notations on it.

E_T

	08-01-2004 02:20									#7
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I suspect that Ruhrpott is where they likely have their FP. It's size 7 and didn't build an Aquaduct without likely FP support.

E_T

	16-01-2004 01:14									#8
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Bumping this

E_T

	16-01-2004 17:39									#9
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quote: Originally posted by OPD Can someone post a map?

In 340AD jim_steer gets bored at work and creates his epic 'The World Map' (warning 1.1M).

	16-01-2004 18:07									#10
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Hey, great map, jim_steer! Thanks for taking the time to put it together

	16-01-2004 22:21									#11
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quote: Originally posted by E_T This is the best that I can do and still have the city names with the pops available to read.

if you are using a program like photoshop or paint shop pro, there's an option to Sharpen an image so it doesn't end up so blurry after resizing it. It usually ends up able to make the city names quite legible.

Jim_steer: excellent map, maybe you can be our official mapmaker since god-knows where Aro is

	17-01-2004 03:01									#12
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Very nice indeed Jim!

	17-01-2004 04:43									#13
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yeah cheers for the map jim,

anyone notice how El Armana seems to be disappearing, very ghost like .

seems a bit odd of GWT to gift those cities to GCA, being so close to their core.
GCA may play a serious part in this war though, they had a bunch of horse back when they left us. 15-20 "invincible" war elephants would be a big deal.

	17-01-2004 05:28									#14
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awesome map

	18-01-2004 00:10									#15
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My guess is there will be a series of campaigns. There might be offical peace between them if neither side wants WW being them or if at least one side is willing to live with WW to hurt the other, they'd stay technically at war.

First campaign which is imment: El Amania captured, one of New Castle and Bostrum captured and the other raized. Probable pillaging of the wines east of the chockpoint, but that city staying in the same hands.

Second campaign aprox 20 to 40 turns following conclusion of the first campaign: Choke point raized and refounded one tile NW on the hills.

Third campaign starting when Military Tradition discovered: CGN majorly downsized until (and if) they get Nationalism. They might very well end up being destroyed before getting this tech without some reserach help from us.

A mopup campaign starting no later than when Tanks are adviable: Whole point will be elimating CGN so they can't vote for us at the UN.

	19-01-2004 03:36									#16
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point will be elimating CGN so they can't vote for us at the UN.- joncnunn

just gift them a city

	19-01-2004 04:07									#17
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I'm actually getting more concerned about CGN being victorious in this war.

CGN has a ton of units in each frontier city (~20), fortified behind Walls with Barracks. It will take an immense GWT army to simply break through this perimeter, and even then they would take very bad losses. CGN's industry has improved greatly, and they will soon have a rather large Knight reserve to use as well. Even if GWT breaks through CGN can fortify the chokepoints with impunity and hit behind GWT lines with Galleys.

And then the Sipahis come, and CGN's GA. With a bunch of size 12 cities and their GA, they can pump out a huge number of Sipahis. And those things are far superior to Ansar in every way. I mean, seriously now... 8 attack. That can punch through anything. CGN builds up a large wave of them, and they kill as many units as they attack.

I'm very skeptical as to whether GWT can break CGN on their first offensive. That's what it will take to prevent Sipahis and CGN's GA from coming into play.

	20-01-2004 10:00									#18
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quote: Originally posted by OPD GCA may play a serious part in this war though, they had a bunch of horse back when they left us. 15-20 "invincible" war elephants would be a big deal.

I dont get it. Whats so scary about war elephants in PTW... Or Is this a reference to how "lucky" GCA gets?


Im with trip on this one. CGN GWT seems roughly the same size to me. But CGN has more population. GWT can use their UU for now, but they seem to have great chokepoint rendering their advantage in mobility useless for now.

Siphais will wreck GWT....

	20-01-2004 12:10									#19
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I fear that CGN may win too, but...

GWT has experience, as a team. They have done the resource cut off and hook up. CGN seems oblivious to the danger.

GWT can fight with WW. they are religious, and guess what, I bet they do Monarchy PDQ.

The problem with defending is that there may be 2 or 3 points you have to defend. The attacker goes 100% at one point, wins through, and then...

Looking at that map, New Castle is useless. As Boston goes, so goes that region. If CGN allows themselves to be pinned and destroyed at Boston, the choke points are forfeit. CGN could wake up one morning with Ansars occupying Agincourt.

	20-01-2004 12:24									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Trip CGN has a ton of units in each frontier city (~20), fortified behind Walls with Barracks.

How do you know?


And what is a Monarchy PDQ?

	20-01-2004 13:16									#21
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They research Monarchy pretty darn quick (PDQ).

	20-01-2004 13:49									#22
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My money is still on CGN surviving until MT then using their UU to take the upper hand against GTW along with building the MA. The area that GWT has to cross is very narrow and not room for many manuevers to get around. All CGN has to do is stack that area heavily, which they are doing.

	20-01-2004 14:00									#23
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I made a poll. Take your pick!

	20-01-2004 15:01									#24
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Wouldn't it be possible for GWT (or CGN) to use galleys or whatever to ferry people across some other point to avoid the chokepoint? It could bypass defences and surely wouldn't cost that much in resources.

Of course, this could be defended against using other seagoing vessels but the question is, overall, would it give the attacker a better chance than simply going for the chokepoint alone?

	20-01-2004 15:05									#25
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Yes, they could. The problem would be the limited capacity of such an attack.

	20-01-2004 19:17									#26
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I have created a new map of the GWT/GCA/CGN border zone - High Detail (1.2M) - Low Detail (384k).

Do people prefer high or low detail maps?

	20-01-2004 20:03									#27
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I personally prefer high.

	20-01-2004 20:49									#28
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New castle and boston are roaded, so weight of defense can be shifted in one turn as required.

But GWT has ansars, and if they are smart, they would try to hide in fog and take advantage of 3 move ansar. Theyre gonna have to do some spying/recons....

CGN should build an outpost for this reason. How far does the outpost give you visibility again? and how updated is the map we're looking at.

	20-01-2004 22:13									#29
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Outposts are broken. They don't work. Good idea though...

	20-01-2004 22:49									#30
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quote: Originally posted by donegeal Outposts are broken. They don't work. Good idea though...

If placed on a mountain, they provide an extra tile of visibility, so 3 tiles. This can be helpful.

...upon looking at the map, it's a moot point, as CGN has 4 mountain tiles in their entire SUBCONTINENT (1 in CGN proper, 3 in former Frog territory), none of which are particularly close to the front. Blah.

Plus the outpost only works if there's a unit occupying it, IIRC.