07-01-2004 06:39									#1
	Jungle Clearing Enter the AD-FREE zone

I discovered this last night when I was playing C3C, and clearing out my empire. Jungle tiles no longer provide a shield bonus when your workers clear them. This really does not do much when you are building costly buildings late in the game, but it can make a small difference when building early buildings and units.

Another thing that bothers me about C3C is the appearance of swampland. They produce no special resouces (oil, coal or something else you may find in an area of heat and decay), take along time to clear, take up valuable grasslands and plains, and you can not sttle on them.

Just my two cents.

	07-01-2004 06:44									#2
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jungles never did. forests do.

marshes are an attempt to make buffer zones in the game. personally, i used to play with only being able to settle grasslands, plains, floodplains, and hills.

	07-01-2004 06:55									#3
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I saw oil in swampland (marshland in the game) in two different places in my last game. (1.12beta version)

This actually sometimes makes it difficult to colonize (building a coastal town in enemy territory) since you can't place a town in marshland.

	07-01-2004 07:39									#4
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You have to clear it first.

	07-01-2004 07:52									#5
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Marshland seems to provide a good amount of bonus grassland when cleared. Better percentage than clearing forest from what I have seen.

	07-01-2004 08:32									#6
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I concur with your analysis Swissy.

	07-01-2004 09:30									#7
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By the time you can see oil you have lots of workers to clear land anyway.

	07-01-2004 15:36									#8
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I think it's peculiar that resources remain when you change a tile. If you clear a jungle containing spices, the spices ought to disappear. Otherwise it's just silly! Where were those spices coming from?

	08-01-2004 01:12									#9
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The spice fairy ofcourse.

	08-01-2004 04:05									#10
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I don't have a problem with it, it is not a simulation and any convention can be used.

	08-01-2004 06:43									#11
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When jungles are cleared, they should become either grassland or desert. That's more or less what happens in the real world.

	08-01-2004 09:26									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Plotinus I think it's peculiar that resources remain when you change a tile. If you clear a jungle containing spices, the spices ought to disappear. Otherwise it's just silly! Where were those spices coming from?

Although this would make gameplay rather interesting - players would have to cope with terrible cities in Forest, Jungles etc until they could see whether they were going to be wiping out valuable resources by terraforming, it would create some problems. If every jungle tile was cleared then you could end up with none of a particular resource, which would be greatly unfair.

	10-01-2004 01:28									#13
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Spices appear on the map at start. Clearing the junle could be considered establishing a spice plantation.

It would present a problem for rubber, however.

	12-01-2004 05:28									#14
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Exactly. I think it would add a nice little twist - yes, zap that jungle if you like, but you might have a problem anyway. Although in general you're not in the business of clearing vast swathes of jungles before the industrial age anyway. As for luxuries, I think it would be nice if the price of having all those spices and suchlike would be having to keep the jungles. It takes the edge off the potential unfairness of a civilisation having lots of them simply because of starting position.

	12-01-2004 11:43									#15
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But at the same time, if you start in or near jungle, you will likely need to clear sooner rather than later or you will lose anyway. I don't think civs that start in jungles, even those brimming with rubber get an advantage, in fact I would say needing to spend all those worker turns clearing just to survive without spontaneous ebola outbreaks in all your cities is a DISadvantage. Extending the timescale of green jungly hell is just asking for rerolls of the map whenever anyone starts in a jungle.

Now if there was some way of giving those who started in jungles a bonus to deal with the reduced food + resources there, or just having jungles appear in very low thicknesses (less than when starting on an ancient world) this could work.