07-01-2004 15:33									#1
	Sparking A War Support Apolyton

Hey does anyone know how to spark a war without declaring it yourself? Like making the other nation declare on you by doing something harmless?
Example: In Alpha Centauri you where able to send a Probe Team into their base and they would go to war with you, so that this way the world sees it as an attack upon YOU not them.
I dont know. I'm a newbie to Civ but I played Alpha Centauri for a very long while. So if anyone has any thoughts or strategies about that, it would be much appreicated. Thanks!

	07-01-2004 15:42									#2
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One common strategy, after you have the Intelligence Agency, is to send espionage missions against your target. If the target discovers them they get seriously angry. Do that enough and they will declare war on you.

There's a thread somewhere that lists in detail all the things that improve or degrade your reputation with other civilisations. I don't know where it is though!

	07-01-2004 16:32									#3
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Thanks! I'll look for that thread too. But the main reason I want the other nation to declare it is so that MY reputation wont suffer. I just want them to start it while i fly scott free. Lol. Maybe its not possible but it would be nice to know if it was. Thanks!

	07-01-2004 18:05									#4
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Starting wars doesn't hurt your reputation too much in civ3 - it's breaking treaties that gets you into trouble. If you want to annoy a civ, keep demanding cities from it. It will rapidly become furious with you, and be much more likely to go to war. I think you have to keep it up for a while though. Failing to plant spies costs a bit of money, but can often cause a war you want. You can try stealing techs with just an embassy, with failure getting you a war (and success getting you a tech - kind of a win-win situation), but that costs a lot of money.

	07-01-2004 18:13									#5
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This has been posted before here and elsewhere, and damned if I can remember right now who did all the research. Very useful if you want to know what you can get away with, and what permanently affects your reputation.

quote: AI attitude I spent a few weeks with an unpatched version of PTW and no internet access (to dowload the patch), so I decided to spend some of that time testing AI attitudes. This test was with the 1.01 version of PTW, so there might be a slim possibility that some of this was changed in a patch, but most likely this all still applies to the latest patch. Attitudes In the debug mode of PTW there are numbers beside the attitude to give a more accurate rank of the AI attitude towards you. I ran my test on a map made entirely of desert (to prevent the AI from building cities), sometimes making an island to determine whether being on the same landmass made a difference. The test was sometimes with 24 civs, but most of the test was with 2 AI civs. I did some of this test with every civ starting with the same techs, so the value of techs wouldn't alter power rankings, although map exploration would affect power rankings, especially for expansionists. If you consider that the default attitudes of AI towards you starts at 0 the following things will affect this number. KEY NOTE: Good things actually give you a negative number, and bad things give you a positive number. Here are the attitude ranks: -11 and lower = Gracious -1 through -10 = Polite 0 = Cautious 1-10 = Annoyed 11 through 100 = Furious At the very start (4000 B.C. before ending your turn), power rankings are equal, so the following determines the 'default' attitudes before power rankings affect things or if the AI has a power lead: Remember, negative numbers are GOOD. Starting attitudes: Start (no factors taken into consideration): 0 -1 You are in the same culture group Example: So the Americans would have -1 for the Iroquois and Aztecs (all in the 'American' culture group), France would have -1 for all civs in the European culture group. Aggression level of AI: Chieftain-Warlord 5 = +2 (Germany, Zulu, Mongols) 4 = +1 (9 Civs) 3 = 0 (6 Civs) 2 = -1 (China, Iroquois, Carthage, Korea) 1 = -1 (France, India) Regent-Monarch 5 = +3 4 = +2 3 = +1 2 = 0 1 = -1 Emperor-Deity 5 = +3 4 = +3 3 = +2 2 = +1 1 = 0 You could look at it as Regent-Monarch is the default level and Chieftain-Warlord decreases the aggression levels by 1, and Emperor-Deity increases the aggression levels by 1 when figuring out attitudes. On Chieftain-Warlord, only Germany will automatically start out as annoyed (+1), unless you are in the European culture group, then there are 5 civs or so that will be cautious with you. Everyone else will be polite. On Emperor-Deity, everyone starts out annoyed with you, except the 5 civs that have despotism as their favorite government (explained below), and the 2 civs with the lowest aggression level (India, France), and there are 4 civs who will be cautious (because of aggressive level of 2, but will be polite if you are in their culture group)- Iroquois, China, Carthage, Korea. But once the AI has a culture lead (explained below), India and france will be cautious and the 4 civs who were cautious, will be annoyed (unless you are in their culture group). Situational/temporary Attitudes (may change during the game). -1 You are in the same government as the AI (of course at the start, everyone is in despotism). Because everyone is in despot in the beginning, this gives the impression that a higher aggression level gives the default 0 (cautious). Start at 0, -1 for same government, then +1 for aggression level of 4 on chieftain for example, brings it back to 0. AI's favorite/shunned governments: -5 Favorite government (only applies if both you and the AI are in this government) +4 Shunned government (only applies if you are in this government and the AI is not) The worst that can happen is you switch from the AI's favorite government, that you both are in, then only you switch to the AI's shunned government (net result +9). An example would be if you switch from despotism to republic and Egypt, Zulu, or Celts stays in despotism or goes to Monarchy. Or you go to Monarchy and the Aztecs stay in Despotism or goes to Republic. Mongols is the other civ that favors despotism, but democracy is their shunned government. For the most part, the AI is in Republic-Democracy while at peace and monarchy-communism while at war, regardless of what their favorite/shunned government is. So even though there are an even 6 AI for both republic and Monarchy, the Republic would apply more often for favorite government because the AI would also be in that same government. For attitude purposes, republic would only be bad for you if most of the other AI is still in despotism or going to a war-time government because of wars. If you are still in despotism, while the rest of the world has switched governments (more frequently seen on higher levels), you'll see the AI attitudes worsen. -1 if you have done any recent trades (maps or techs) or currently have a 20 turn deal with them (gold/turn, trade embargo against another civ). Trading maps every turn does not help improve attitude! It would only help if the map knowledge is being the decisive factor in who has the power lead. Offering very generous trades (example: giving them 5,000 gold for Alphabet) does not help. You sometimes lose this point every once in awhile usually due to some tiles that you have uncovered/improved, or simply as time goes by. You usually lose it more often than every 20 turns, but certainly not every turn or two in most cases. Just remember to trade maps once in a while. Multiple trades does not increase this bonus, either you get the point or you don;t. If techs or gold is used in combination with another treaty this point will apply. -1 If you sign a trade embargo against another civ. This counts in the same category as having a recent trade, so if you've already recently traded maps/techs, signing a trade embargo won't help. +10 for the victim of the trade embargo. -1 If you have a culture lead. +1 if the AI has the culture lead. -1 You pay tribute to the AI. +1 If you call the AI's bluff when he demands tribute (and he doesn't declare war of course). -5 If you have a Right of Passage with the AI. -10 If you have a Mutual Protection Pact with the AI. Just remember that a MPP is risky, because they can get you into a war you don't want to be in. -3 if at war with a common enemy. -2 If you then sign an alliance. So a -5 if you sign an alliance and go to war with that enemy. -1 to -3 for each enemy unit (of common enemies) you destroy and tiles you pillage, -7 for razing an enemy city, but all of this is temporary - AFTER the war or the civ is destroyed, you will get the +1 penalty for each razed city added back on, plus the +1 penalty for declaring war (even if you had joined the alliance). Any damage you did prior to signing the alliance (but during that same war) gets immediately added on. The total effect seems to cap at -15 for doing damage and having an alliance, -13 if you do everything else, but don't have the alliance in place. This decays at -1 each turn, unless you destroy a unit or pillage a tile each turn to keep it at the maximum. So when peace comes and the -15 'temporary' points is automatically taken off, it may seem like you took an attitude hit by signing peace or destroying the civ, because the other AI have a worse attitude towards you. +1 to +3 for using privateers (the victim adds on the penalty). -5 If you trade or donate a resource. Trading multiple resources seems to have no effect. +1 If they ask you to leave their territory, +4 if you are given the orders to leave or declare war. These are only temporary, and as long as you leave when forced to, you get the points back the next turn. You can continually send 1 troop in, spend 1 turn there and claim you will leave, leave when you are forced to, but go back into their territory the next turn, and the AI attitude will not drop in the long run, just keep cycling between +/- 5 pts. Any recent wars can add a penalty, seemingly depending on the casualties the AI took. Most of this decays after being at peace for awhile (and the AI re-builds lost troops). +4 for failing at an espionage mission (any mission or attempting to plant a spy). Other civs don't care, just the civ you tried to plant the spy in, or perform a mission in. You can recover these points after 10-20 turns. Actually from what I'm figuring now +3 (which you can recover) is temporary, +1 is permanent. Gifts -1 for each 10 gold worth of techs/gold you donate, up to a maximum of -10 (100 gold). This bonus decays at about 10 gold/turn. The larger of a gift you give above 100 gold, then longer you will get to keep the -10 maximum pts. Example: Giving them 1,000 gold will keep them happy for 100 turns, 500 gold would be 50 turns. gpt donations are added on immediately, but the effect of it may disappear before the deal is done. Permanent Attitude Changes Note: Some of the attitude changes you do to a victim during war is hard to test, since it's hard to find the difference between acts, because you can't find the attitude level until the war is over with. And figuring the difference between what penalties are just from being at war, and what was caused by breaking treaties, razing cities, etc. Most penalties are temporarily erased if the civ is at war with the civ who you broke a treaty with. Example: Say the Aztecs have added +10 points because of things I have done to the Iroquois. If the Aztecs go to war with the Iroquois, those 10 points are taken away, so the Aztecs will feel better towards me, but once they sign peace with the Iroquois the 10 point penalty is added back on. So penalties are only added for friendly civs, not enemies. -1 if you have made a donation of 100 gold or more. -2 If you have an embassy with the AI +2 You demand tribute from the AI. Whether they actually pay the tribute or not. If they have a good attitude towards you, this will be +1, but once they are annoyed/furious it will be +2 each time you demand tribute. You can make 50 tributes in one turn and get a civ at +100 towards you (very, very furious). +1 if you raze the city of another AI. +12 if you raze a city of that civ. Other civs don't add any more penalties than the standard +1 if the city had contained any Great wonders. It doesn't look like the victim adds more than the +12 permanent penalty either, but there may be a temporary penalty. +4 if you've declared war on that civ before. If the AI had declared war on you, it is possible to get the attitude back to pre-war levels, providing you don't raze any cities or other bad things. +12 for breaking an alliance. +2 is what other civs will add. No penalty for destroying the last city of an AI (unless you raze it, then just the +1 for a razed city). But the 'temporary' effects of doing damage to a common enemy, alliances, etc. will disappear since no one is at war with that civ anymore. +1 You declare war on a friendly civ (all civs who are at peace with this civ will add on the point, others will add the point if they ever sign peace with this civ). The trick is to get others to declare war on you. Example: Aztecs were at -17 with me, I declare war on the Iroquois, so now I'm at -16 with the Aztecs. If I get the Aztecs into the war via an alliance I now am at -22 (-5 for the alliance, then recover the +1 point since I'm no longer at war with a civ that is friendly with the Aztecs). But after war, the +1 penalty is added back on. +4 if you break a trade route (like pillaging your own road) that cancels a treaty. In addition to the -5 you lost since you are no longer trading resources, it will feel like +9. Other civs will add +1. +1 If you sell them one of your workers (not sure why this is, maybe it's confused and thinks you were at war at one point and thinks that is how it got your slave'). You restore the point if you buy the worker back. +1 for each captured worker you disband (of their nationality). Think of it as disbanding = killing. Using the slaves, selling them, or joining them into cities (even if they starve off), seems to have no effect. Breaking a ROP treaty: +4 If you have no units in their territory when declaring war with a ROP treaty in place, other AI will add +1, but will still sign ROP with you. +6 If you have any units in their territory when you break the ROP treaty, and other civs won't sign ROP with you anymore and will add +2. +4 for breaking a peace treaty with that civ. +1 is what other civs will add on for breaking a peace treaty with another civ. These numbers are doubled if you figure in the fact that you are declaring war-(example: +4 for breaking the treaty +4 for declaring war). Nukes: Victim of the nuke adds +32! Other civs will add on +16, regardless of whether they declared war on you or not. These penalties are permanent. +1 for failing at an espionage mission (any mission or attempting to plant a spy). +3 is temporarily added, but the +1 is permanent from a limited test I did. Other civs don't care, just the civ you tried to plant the spy in, or perform a mission in. Other factors +1 if you accept a city that wants to flip. -1 if you refuse to accept the city flip. These are cumulitive if there are multiple flips, but I'm not sure if these are permanent or temporary. Having resources that the AI does not have doesn't seem to affect things (although it would affect power rankings and might affect the possibility of war, but not attitude). Nor does being on the same landmass affect attitude. Making a 'culture attack' (building a city right on their border and rushing culture to try and flip their city) does not affect attitude. Power lead: If you have a power lead, most of the good effects (negative numbers) are halved. ROP is one of them that still gives you the full points no matter who has the power lead. Example of what is affected: Maximum of -5 for donations instead of -10. So the Americans start off with the Aztecs at -6 (-5 for favorite government, -1 same government, -1 for same culture group, +1 for agression level) with them at 4000 B.C. on Chieftain, but this drops to -3 at 3950 B.C. on the lower levels, because already the human has a power lead. If the AI has a lead in power, you'll see the full effects, or normal numbers (all numbers I've listed in my study). If I give myself 5000 gold and donate everything I have that turn, the donation part of the formula will be at -5, but when I end my turn, the power rankings are calculated and the AI now has the power lead, so it will jump up to the full -10. If the civ is extremely furious, positive things seem to have less of an effect.

There are other quirks not relevant to a discussion of AI attitude - if you break any kind of 20-turn deal before it is up, your ability to do things like buy techs or luxuries for gold-per-turn deals (or any mix of up-front and pre-turn deals) is worsened. It used to be the case that all such deals were impossible for you, but it seems to have been softened now so that smoe civs will still trade with you even if others won't.

	07-01-2004 19:40									#6
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I've read somewhere that you can renegotiate peace treaties with the ai civs and just clear the negotiation to get war without a rep hit. I use this method all the time. Just be sure that it has been >20 turns since last renegotiation or war with target civ.

	07-01-2004 19:54									#7
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One of the main benefits of having the opponent declare war on you instead of the other way around is negative war weariness. Often worth 10-20% on the luxury slider.

Surefire way to get the AI to declare war is to demand they leave your territory when they are furious at you and/or stronger militarily in the military advisor's eyes. (not always a good idea to get them to delare war then though )

Espionage missions work as noted, but you can just try to steal a tech with your embassy too. If you 'fail' to start a war, you get a tech! I think the same rules apply as when demanding they leave your territory. AI's which are furious with you, or stronger will declare war when/if you get caught. Expensive way to start a war, but it can pay off with a tech. The negative war weariness can also cover some of the expense.

I haven't noticed in later versions, but in some of the first patches I was able to give away a large number of Workers (50+) to smaller AI's to get them to declare war on me the next turn. Never figured out why they would do it, but it worked. Not a very efficient use of Workers in most cases though.

	07-01-2004 22:02									#8
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If they are not furious, just keep demanding they give you a city and they will soon be furious.

	07-01-2004 23:49									#9
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Aeson, I imagine you gave away Workers to bolster the AI's military, at least in its own estimation? If that's the trick, it's been fixed now (Workers do not count as units in military strength calculations).




Dominae

	08-01-2004 01:24									#10
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One factor I noticed that wasn’t in that discussion above (unless I missed it) is refusing to see the AI diplomat during peace time. I have done this a few times, and the AI declared war straight away. Unfortunately, I do not remember what the AI’s attitude prior to me shunning its diplomat was.

	08-01-2004 02:31									#11
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How are AI attitudes used in the Diplomatic Victory?

	08-01-2004 06:45									#12
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I would give them away when I finally got most of the Mass Transits done and could get rid of most of the Workers on cleanup duty. The games usually got less interesting then (to say the least), and so sparking war was a way to pass the time. I haven't milked a Huge map game in a very long time, so have no idea if this still works or not.

They did count as military at the time, but I was still far and away more powerful than the AI even with the 50 unit swing. It may have something to do with the AI seeing itself gaining ground quickly, or perhaps a problem with the attitude calculations that go on for captured workers.

I always liked to pretend it was because the AI felt it was a really stupid thing for me to do, and so saw a weakness to take advantage of.

AI - "If they run the war this way, even our 4 Riflemen can beat 'em!"

	08-01-2004 08:31									#13
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If you gave them 50, it is a 100 unit swing.

	08-01-2004 11:01									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson AI - "If they run the war this way, even our 4 Riflemen can beat 'em!"

That's some fun role-playing!

Catt

	08-01-2004 11:05									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I meant it like the 50 units swing from my side to theirs. :P

Even with a 100 unit swing they don't stack up well to the 200-300 MA's and like number of MI's I had lying around. The AI disbands most of the workers too.

	08-01-2004 12:57									#16
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300 MA's oh my. I can see the the boys rubbing their eyes now.

	08-01-2004 14:49									#17
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quote: Originally posted by TheArsenal One factor I noticed that wasn’t in that discussion above (unless I missed it) is refusing to see the AI diplomat during peace time. I have done this a few times, and the AI declared war straight away. Unfortunately, I do not remember what the AI’s attitude prior to me shunning its diplomat was.

I think it depends a lot on what they were going to talk to you about. I've sent people away with no problems befoer (I think). I suspect that if they are going to demand tribute, and you refuse an audience, they declare war (otherwise it would be too easy to avoid tributes - never accept an audience with the AI - just make note of who wants to talk to you during their turn, and get back to them during yours, when they can't make demands). Until later in the game, when the AI phones you up to trade it's world map for your world map, 12,000 gold and three techs, a lot of the AI's contacts during its turn are demands for tribute.

	10-01-2004 04:11									#18
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Thank you all very much for your contributions. They've all helped me alot. Thanks!

	13-01-2004 03:11									#19
	Spark a War Support Apolyton

Hey heres an interesting Question:
How do you spark a war between two Nations? (Without signing anything more than a Peace Treaty... because I find it hard to find AI that will sign MPP with me)
That way they will war with each other as I build up or join later! Yeh just wondering if anyone knows any ways of doing that! It sure would be nice to see two of the larger civs in my new game to beat the crap outa each other
Thanks all!

	13-01-2004 04:06									#20
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Demand they get their troops the hell out of your territory or declare war usually works for me.

	13-01-2004 05:11									#21
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Nice list Vulture. I noticed attitude worsening after a tech gift on several occasions with out of the box C3C.......I didn't really get it and thought it was a bug. Does it have a place in the list posted?

	03-02-2004 23:42									#22
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I also think that if you refuse to see the AI when they are coming to demand that you remove units, they auto declare war as well. Because, again, you could just ignore them indefinately and keep moving through their territory.

	04-02-2004 00:12									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Cookie Monster I've read somewhere that you can renegotiate peace treaties with the ai civs and just clear the negotiation to get war without a rep hit. I use this method all the time. Just be sure that it has been >20 turns since last renegotiation or war with target civ.

I always wait the 20 turns before starting war and sometimes I clear the negotiation to cause war, however sometimes I will start a war by just making an alliance against the civ. I dont believe that this costs a reputation hit either.

	04-02-2004 13:40									#24
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One thing you can do is MPP with civ A, then declare war on civ B. Civ B should be located somewhere where it's warring with you is of words only (other continents are ideal) but close to A. Be careful that Civ B doesn't drag in your neighbor civ C.

	09-02-2004 09:40									#25
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Try this: place submarines around an enemy frigate. The frig will blunder into a sub and attack. I know this bug has been mentioned before, but today I had this happen to me, and even though I was stronger and had border barricades, my border city couldn't take an attack by two dozen cav and was razed before I could say "W-T-F??!??!" I shut down the game and reloaded quickly.

	09-02-2004 13:33									#26
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Surely this will get fixed soon.

	10-02-2004 23:45									#27
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quote: Originally posted by ZargonX I also think that if you refuse to see the AI when they are coming to demand that you remove units, they auto declare war as well. Because, again, you could just ignore them indefinately and keep moving through their territory.

Do you get a formal request seeking audience when you’re trespassing? I’m pretty sure the AI civ just pops up between turns and demands removal of units.

	11-02-2004 00:59									#28
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quote: Do you get a formal request seeking audience when you’re trespassing? I’m pretty sure the AI civ just pops up between turns and demands removal of units.

D'oh, you are completely correct. It was a good theory, though

	11-02-2004 23:48									#29
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Hmm...I bet I know another way (test in progress). In a C3C game my Aztecs just finished an alliance with the Maya against the Iroquois. This started when I noticed a very large number of Mayan Crusaders and whatnot marching purposefully through my territory but not bothering my cities. The Mayans were Furious with me (well, who isn't?), so I knew that demanding their removal would be instant war. Since I planned to whack the Iroquois soon anyway I figured I'd let the Maya help me. [They actually took two cities, but then I got my faster units out in front and took the rest of the mainland cities for myself.]

So now the Maya allied with the Inca against the Egyptians, and the Mayan army is marching back east to join the party. I have "Polite" relations with the Egyptians, so this seems to be time to put paid to the Maya.

So we have a peace treaty running another 16 years. Hmmm... So what happens if I form a pocket around that Mayan army, preventing them from going home? Initially, while I'm bringing up the reserves, I'm leaving one hole to the west through two mountains...and planning to close that and open a hole to the east when they get there.

I'll bet you two techs that they declare war before I get my reserves up, and the "Corinth Pocket" has very thin walls right now.

	12-02-2004 03:09									#30
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In a recent 1.15b Sid game I had a captured worker in my invasion beachhead city which I moved onto an adjacent tile and ended my turn. The AI brought in a horseman to capture it as I intended and I was able to block the horseman's exit from my territory on my next turn. I then negotiated peace. A couple of turns later when my units were all healed up in Beachhead I demanded tribute from the AI to make sure he was really furious and then demanded he leave my territory fully expecting him to declare war. HE DIDN'T! His unit was teleported out of my turf and my plans to devastate his army without an international rep hit lay in ruins. My info was that our militaries were average to one another and I had only taken 1 city from the AI's 15 or so. The "Leave my territory" tactic usually works but apparently not 100% of the time.

Last edited by Drachen on 12-02-2004 at 03:17