07-01-2004 20:58									#1
	SoZ discussion, again Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I just caught up with some reading I've missed in the last few weeks, and people have still been discussing the SoZ as 'overpowered' and 'underpowered'.

The best suggestion anyone has given, rather than altering how it works (of those my favorite was making it expire with a source of iron and horses), is making it less unique.

How about changing the Temple of Artemis to require Incense as a fix to the perception of the SoZ? The Temple is always the first wonder I try to get since Conquests (instead of the Pyramids). I guess it goes to say I'm usually a relatively pacifistic, culture victory player, and for me the Temple is as the Statue is to warmongers.

A free temple in all cities, particularly for its borders, is a godsent for people playing from a cultural and peaceful expansionistic style.

That would, however, make people want other luxury resources to have an attached wonder, which might just be feasible.


Now how about that Mausoleum? It definitely takes the cake for 'most useless' wonder divisible. I'm glad it's cheap.

	08-01-2004 02:59									#2
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

That's why its cheap. Its actually balanced by being an early but slightly expensive cathedral, so you can grow a city to 12 no problem..
I could think of one or two others that are NOT cheap and you get almost as little out of them. .. cure (1h for 1000) and longevity (by that time most of your cities are done growing)..

	08-01-2004 04:25									#3
	Suffering from ads?

Someone posted about the SoZ being modded to a Small Wonder and no requirements. Apparently everyone was building it and there were Ancient Cavalry everywhere! Sounds kinda fun.

I have no problems with SoZ the way it is. If I build it, Great!, if not, then, Oh well. Just have to build extra defenders to withstand the onslaught.

In my latest game, the Americans built the SoZ, and I never even met them before they were wiped-out by the Aztecs. Apparently it wasn't powerful enough to save the Americans from extinction.

I agree with swat about Longivity. It's essentially another Pyramids (i.e. it doubles city growth) and comes at a time when most players are battling unhapiness from too large cities anyway.

Steven

	08-01-2004 09:16									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by steven8r Someone posted about the SoZ being modded to a Small Wonder and no requirements. Apparently everyone was building it and there were Ancient Cavalry everywhere! Sounds kinda fun. I have no problems with SoZ the way it is. If I build it, Great!, if not, then, Oh well. Just have to build extra defenders to withstand the onslaught. In my latest game, the Americans built the SoZ, and I never even met them before they were wiped-out by the Aztecs. Apparently it wasn't powerful enough to save the Americans from extinction.

It DOES sound fun, but then invalidates Horsemen and Swordsmen to a great degree when it comes online.

And the SoZ does very little for your chances for 20+ turns after it is built. It is only when you have as many as 10 or so ACs that you start to become unstoppable.

Perhaps there is an idea there - that the SoZ produces an ACav every 5 turns for only a limited time, say 40 turns from when it was constructed. Then, although you get the benefits of the ACs if you really need them, you don't become a superpower leaning totally on the SoZ.

	08-01-2004 10:14									#5
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I actually really like the Mausoleum, simply because it means my capitol can more easily have a shot at stealing other wonders from the AI. I play primarily at Monarch and am foraying into Emperor.
I usually head for Philosophy as fast as I can. Sure, I'd rather have the Gardens than Mausollos, but if I don't have the time or the shields, this thing's really nice.
Also don't forget the GA triggers.

I do like the idea of taking some of the new wonders and making them like UUs, only resource related. Less competition between AIs for wonders, less cascades, less wasted AI shields. The downside is that you limit your own failsafes AND you hamper your GA triggers somewhat.

Edit: @MWIA - some suggestions seen elsewhere have included increasing the interval between units to 7 or even 10, which would similarly limit the size of your AC horde.

	09-01-2004 07:49									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I'm not seeing a problem with the SoZ myself, really, either.

I was more testing the water to see what people would think about other resource-requiring wonders. As I suggested, making the Temple of Artemis (a wonder of roughly the same cost/power as SoZ, but for peaceful players) require Incense.

I saw that as a way to balance SoZ, flavor/feeling-wise with others, by making it less 'unique'. I think the SoZ is picked on so much because of the luxury resourece requirement more than anything else.

	09-01-2004 09:23									#7
	Re: SoZ discussion, again Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by MqsTout I guess it goes to say I'm usually a relatively pacifistic, culture victory player, and for me the Temple is as the Statue is to warmongers.

My viewpoint is a little different. While I consider myself more of the pacifist builder, I value the SoZ very highly because it means I can generally spend my time building the early buildings such as temples, libraries and marketplaces (not to mention more workers, which is vital), without having to worry about the AI invading my less than optimally defended cities.

Of course, it does take a while to get enough AC to be an adequate fighting force, but with that one proviso, I think the SoZ is a great boost for builder type players.

	09-01-2004 19:43									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Okay, I can see that.

But the Temple of Artemis? Saves you from having to build temples in your cities altogether. It's immediate temple is quote the boon especially for newly-founded cities to start working on gathering culture and growing borders right away.

A saved temple lets you work on the other improvements all the more quickly. The benefits of the free temple is a little less valuable to a religious civilization, because temples are relatively cheap for them already.

	09-01-2004 22:21									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

The wonder is not overpowered, first cos it's hard to build and second cos it doesn't pop out ancient cavalry all the turns.

The cavalry itself is not overpowered. Attack 3 and defense 2 ? Same as swordsmen, I would say ordinary compared to ancient age units. Sure it can move 2 squares... but that still doesn't make overpowered to me.

Also, if you didn't build SoZ... you can still conquer/destroy it.

I don't see how it can be overpowered.

	11-01-2004 01:30									#10
	Support Apolyton

It's not overpowered. It's nice to have but 3-2-2 is not overpowering in the ancient age and my ancient cav get slaughterted sometimes trying to take heavily defended cities. At times I feel it is actually a waste when I lose 6 Cavs in a row trying to take a well defended town then I see that was just 30 turns of SoZ unti pumping down the drain.

On another note one good thing about it is it can keep your military strong in the advisor so AI is less likely to try and sneak attack you or go to war on a whim. You will be bullied less, that is always a plus.

	11-01-2004 01:58									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Greatest advantage is giving you an offensive option if you have no iron or horses - happened to me today

	11-01-2004 07:41									#12
	Suffering from ads?

I might even reverse the perception of Zeus being for warmongers and Artemis for builders. When I played the Mongols, Artemis was incredible. Every town I conquered instantly started producing culture and pushing the borders back, making taking the next town even easier. I put off advancing tech-wise for as long as I could.

In a tiny map game I played not too long ago, I was flush up against Mayans and the Incans. The Mayans had secured Zeus and, sure enough, a good 30-40 turns later they were crossing my borders with ancient cavalry--but by that time I had pikemen and knights. I see that as the main balancing factor: SoZ is not all that cheap, and it's not all that far from pikemen and knights. (I'm much less likely to skip chivalry any more, between ancient cavalry and the cost of upgrades.)

I ended up kicking them off the island, and using the SoZ (and Knights Templar) to kick the Incans off, to boot.

A good wonder is one you slow down research to avoid obsolescing.

Meanwhile, if you secure the SoZ, that's a ticket to build-build-build, because you know you're getting free units anyway.

[ok]