08-01-2001 10:37									#1
	Draw Proposals for 20th, 20 and 1600 Put an end to popups!

Once again we have lost control of these games, I'm not blaming Du Chateau, he was nice enough to take these but it may be time to end them. From now on when anybody commits to GM, play or mapmake a game the responsibility is yours, absolute. If you can not meet the obligations then it is your responsibility to find replacements to keep the game on a timely basis.

With that said this is my proposal, 20th century a draw between England and the US, if we combine forces and be advised, we will, the outcome will be the same it will just take longer.

1600, same situation, we already own most of the map and we will continue are assautl, so I propose a draw between Poland and Russia.

Dip 20, I one of the crushed so I propose a draw between Australia and S.Africa for they are the absolute powers in this game.

I don't mean to sound like it's my way or the highway but I see no alternatives, nobody seems to want to pick up the GM'ing, Ruffhause and I would be we are too involved in the games and we have a lot of other games we are engaged with.

Please list you agreement or disagreement here and thanks for listening.

	08-01-2001 03:15									#2
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I must say that I flatly reject your Dip 1600 proposal as unreasonable and unacceptable. I would rather see a Polish solo than a Russian/Polish draw, though a draw including Sweden would be (obviously) the preffered outcome.

20th... would you please hurry up and eliminate me?

	08-01-2001 03:32									#3
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I accept the draw concession to South Africa and Australia in Dip20 - they're the only two powers who show clear signs of growth. Prussia is shrinking fast, while Austria and India are getting beaten up by each other and by South Africa as well as Australia, and the CSA has been stalemated for a decade, as well as the USA for even longer.

	08-01-2001 05:30									#4
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Victor,
Your ignorance precedes you once more, Poland could achieve a solo but it will take much more time if he can even solo, the idea is to end these as fair as possible. That's fine if you want to oppose it, we will play until Ruff and I eliminate you, which won't take long, and then we will call for the draw. This game has gone on long enough, the outcome is predictable, now you could do the mature thing and say OK fine, but if you want to throw a hissy fit over this then so be it!

	08-01-2001 05:32									#5
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Lordstone,
Thank you and I believe you are correct, the stalemating has gone on for quite a while and will continue, however I see you and Boshko growing very strong and eventually drawing or a solo between the one of you two.

	08-01-2001 06:40									#6
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Re: Dip 20
Are you stoned? I have four more supply centres than South Africa!

Sure, if you bear in mind that SA and Australia are allies bent on my destruction then they are probably more powerful; does this make them more deserving of a draw?

Hell no!

Nice of you to look out for your ally South Africa though, LS1... clear signs of growth, yeah right, that's why there're Indian units in the middle of Africa .
[This message has been edited by Gibsie (edited January 07, 2001).]

	08-01-2001 07:13									#7
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Gibsie,
I'm looking at this as if it were to continue, you pissed everybody off in this game and Ruff is coming after you and Boshko has greater growing opportunities and I think you are limited or will be losing them. I'm only bringing these up, of coarse you don't have to agree with them, if one person doesn't agree it doesn't pass, just like a regular draw proposal with one exception if you don't vote it is a YES vote. If you want to continue, no problem. We need to find GM's.

	08-01-2001 07:17									#8
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Let's see:

Poland: 13 SCs
Russia: 11 SCs
Spain: 8 SCs
England: 7 SCs
Sweden: 6 SCs
Ottomans: 2 SCs
Austria: 1 SC

Now, Poland+Russia=24 centers, all others, =24 centers, victory conditions are 25 centers then. The thing is this though: Poland only needs 12 centers to solo, of which the Austrian one is assured this turn, and if he stabbed me, then he would get most if not all of the centers (unless he specifically tried to get you centers), that puts him at 20 centers, and forces you to fight him if you want to stop him from soloing. I don't think the game can be called right here, unless it is a DIAS (minus France and Austria who are basically dead.)

	08-01-2001 07:27									#9
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Considering you are opposing the draw we will find out, now won't we.

	08-01-2001 09:06									#11
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Okay, with 1600 and Dip 20 still underway, there is hope for 20th Century yet! Who will step foward and accept the collosal task?

At his point I'm in agreement with Defiant. We can end it by calling a draw between the England and the USA. I realize this is different from what I said earlier today, but there you have it.

	08-01-2001 21:08									#12
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Okay LS1 you win on that point, I hadn't memorised the map (or even looked at it beofre making wild claims ) but really, what is this growth possibility for South Africa?

Let's see...
Zai
Lib
Mad

These are the only three centres that SA has a good chance of capturing. Now, I don't have that many SC's open to me, but even then, if you include likely future gains, I'm still beating South Africa! I'd be far more willing to allow Australia a straight victory, so it's not about my stubbornness to accept defeat


You simply can't use other peoples' feelings towards me as a factor in who is more powerful, because for all you know I might have a secret alliance in case the game does continue; in that case what am I supposed to do? Reveal it here, have you reject what I say again and have the game continue with this "secret"'s cover blown?