08-01-2004 01:46									#1
	A novel idea. All UU's should be useful. No Industrial Age or Modern UU's. Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I know they tried to balance some UUs good for them But really some UUs are so vastly superior than others I don't understand why they don't make all UUs great for all civs?

Also, UU's that come in the industrial and modern ages are too late and the usefulness by then compared to a good ancient or middle age UU is greatly reduced, there is no comparison.

	08-01-2004 07:42									#2
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[sarcasm]
Long Live the F15!!! Now if we just had a UU equivalent of Modern Armor !
[/sarcasm]

One problem would be that some of the civs weren't around in certain ages. So Ancient and Medeival Age units would be very dificult for some civs like America, Russia, and probably some others that I'll think of later.

Steven

	08-01-2004 08:00									#3
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ever think that UUs are based with civ traits in mind?

take Egypt. Religious + Industrious is a power house, and a chariot is sub-par.

	08-01-2004 08:45									#4
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I like military + industrious. To bad China is the only civ with those traits out of so many.

	08-01-2004 08:51									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Uber KruX ever think that UUs are based with civ traits in mind? take Egypt. Religious + Industrious is a power house, and a chariot is sub-par.

I respectfully suggest that if you feel the War Chariot is a sub-par unit, you drop by the multiplayer arena of the ladder for a wee bit. We might be able to offer evidence by which you may reconsider.

	08-01-2004 09:19									#6
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War Chariot is not a sub-par unit in SP, either...

	08-01-2004 09:29									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon I respectfully suggest that if you feel the War Chariot is a sub-par unit, you drop by the multiplayer arena of the ladder for a wee bit. We might be able to offer evidence by which you may reconsider.

What say you of the units in question, F-P? How do F-15s, Men O'War etc shape up in MP? Are they useless?

	08-01-2004 11:06									#8
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quote: Originally posted by steven8r [sarcasm] Long Live the F15!!! Now if we just had a UU equivalent of Modern Armor ! [/sarcasm]

Like the Panzer?

	08-01-2004 17:10									#9
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Actually I much prefer a F-15, or Panzer, or Cossak to ANY ancient age kickass. The War Chariot is absolutely the crappiest special unit in the game IMHO. Why ? Well very simple. The special unit gives you a one-time super bonus at its first victory, which is the Golden Age. Now let's think about it a moment: the Wheel is a first level tech. I'll have war chariots fighting against my enemies when I have about 5-6 cities with their squares almost all undeveloped and only few citizens. 20 turns in the early ages also fly by quite quickly and mean much less than further on. So do I want a Golden Age in this situation, or when I have 20+ cities with 20+ city squares that can take use of the GA gold and shield bonus ? do yuo have a slight idea of the difference of bonus you get with a Golden Age in the early stage of the game and a GA later on ? I personally think the best moment for a GA is late Middle Age / beginning of Industrial Age.

Also until C3C air superiority is very important in the latest times. The AI tends to build loads of bombers. And F-15 helps a lot with(against) that. I love it and I hardly can think of it as useless.

	08-01-2004 21:16									#10
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quote: Originally posted by MattPilot I like military + industrious. To bad China is the only civ with those traits out of so many.

And what's wrong with China? They have a great UU too!

	08-01-2004 22:26									#11
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nothing is wrong with china. Infact, i play them. I just wish there were more choices regarding that trait combination.

	08-01-2004 22:36									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Filippo Actually I much prefer a F-15, or Panzer, or Cossak to ANY ancient age kickass. The War Chariot is absolutely the crappiest special unit in the game IMHO. Why ? Well very simple. The special unit gives you a one-time super bonus at its first victory, which is the Golden Age.

Sorry - but I must concur with Fried and Dominae on this one. The War Chariot is a blockbuster UU. Let's play some MP and you'll see that your well-timed GA isn't going to do you any good if you are DEAD.

GA timing is absolutely overrated IMHO. People act like it's the be all and end all. I don't need a well-timed GA if my neighbors have been relegated to "archaeologist fodder".


Mo D

	09-01-2004 00:05									#13
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Frankly, the WC does not equal a badly timed GA.

You can get out of despotism before launching a WC offensive, and that's what really matters, IMO. Late ancient age GAs with a horde of WCs have served me well in SP. If you don't want to have your GA that early, fine, you can build horsemen instead, IIRC, and still use a warrior -> sword upgrade for a rush. Then the WC is around for mass production and upgrade to knights with Leos, if you can get it.

In MP, clearly it's a solid UU. Cost-effective to say the least. It certainly helped save GS's ass in the PTWDG*.

-Arrian

* - Ok, the timing more than anything else, because we had rather mountainous terrain to deal with and incoming immortals, so our primary saviors were pikemen, catapults and med inf. But the WC was there to trigger our GA when we needed it most, and low-production cities were able to put out 2.1.2. units for the bargain price of 20 shields.

	09-01-2004 02:42									#14
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I was interested in the original question...how often do the later UU's actually end up being useful? I have never built an F15 as an American...I am always bound for victory by the time it is available. The only time panzers made a difference was when I switched strategies late in the game and wanted to blitzkrieg my allies of two millennia. Otherwise, I would agree the earlier ones have a greater advantage. A UU you never use is a disadvantage.

	09-01-2004 02:53									#15
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Not always. Sometimes having the standard units available instead of a UU is better.

For instance, I have at times considered Legionaries to be a disadvantage of playing Rome.

WHAT?? AM I INSANE??

No, I'm not. There have been times when I've really wanted to sword rush an AI civ, but didn't want my GA yet. I would have loved to have had swordsmen available. But legionaries replace swords.

In PTW, when I played a couple of games as the Mongols, I wished I'd had normal knights instead of Keshiks - the knights were just better.

But, if the F15 really bothers people, I could imagine switching the American UU to a "minuteman" - a rifleman equivalent. That's early industrial, early enough to make a difference in some games.

-Arrian

	09-01-2004 04:28									#16
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Since a civ's UU is usually responsible for triggering the GA, the timing can be just as criticial as the unit bonus. The best GA time is the early-to-mid Middle Ages when the extra commerce and shields will help you get to the techs and production needed for those juicy M.A. wonders: Sistine, Bach, Sun Tzu, Leo. Therefore, even a crappy UU can be helpful if it comes at the right time. But as the original poster noted, Industrial or Modern UU's are pretty worthless.

	10-01-2004 01:10									#17
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The F-15 is the most bonused unit in the game. +3 defense, +1 ROF (IIRC), and I think it has +2 bombard.

	10-01-2004 01:17									#18
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Heh. And it's STILL one of the most useless in the game because of how late it comes. Fancy that.


Mo D

	10-01-2004 01:31									#19
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First you only talk about Multiplayer.
Second sorry but I totaly disagree. Just cos you've been lucky 1 or 2 times in MP doesn't make the War Chariot any good. In MP, yeah you could use the chariot to lead early attacks to your neighbour. So what ? It's not any superior unit, it doesn't make any big difference in combat, attacking a city defended by spearmen will get you with a 1:2 loss ratio at least, plus even assuming you reduce your neighbour to a ìn archeologist site... again: so what ? You play 1v1 ? There will be other Civs, which will crush you on the long time because they had a good GA and you didn't. And yes GA matters and a lot. Of course having it at the age of war chariots will only make you think it's useless. If it is 1v1 then trust me, by the time you met your opponent he will have horsemen. All this without considering that if your neighbours are separated from you by mountains, forests, jugles, swamps, hills, etc... well guys, again, by the time you reach them your shining war chariot will be so outdated to be shown in your enemies museums.

	10-01-2004 02:28									#20
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Well, I've gotten "lucky" with it a lot more than "1 or 2 times" in MP, but I sense you want to talk about SP. That's fine. The WC is just as effective in SP as it is in MP. Why, you ask? Why would I want the poorly timed GA?

Here's why (you tell me which option is better):

1) I get a more "well-timed" GA, but am unable to "clear" my continent of enemies. Later in the game, my infrastructure is built up a little better (because of the better timing of the GA), but now I have enemies on my continent competing for land and resources.

2) I get a not-so-well timed GA earlier in the game with my War Chariots, but I have now "cleared" my continent of enemies and have all the land and resources pretty much to myself. My infrastructure is maybe lagging a bit (it's taking longer to build it as I don't have a well-timed GA helping me out). Of course, I'm free to take a little longer to build up that infrastructure as I no longer need to worry about maintaining a strong military (there's no one left on the continent to worry about!). This option also probably puts me ahead on tech a little bit as well, as I have been able to extort tech from the AI in return for short periods of peace (I've conquered half their cities with WC's already and they will do anything for peace!).

Sure, you can achieve victory either way, but I would submit that option 2 is the easier path to victory.

Lastly, to say that WCs are no match for spears is just not correct - especially as I'm cranking them out in large numbers because of my early GA (and they're ONLY 20 shields!). The War Chariot is a VERY powerful unit and one of the best UU's in the game. Give it a try with an early warmongering strategy and you'll see exactly what I mean. The poor AI doesn't stand a chance.


Mo D

	10-01-2004 08:25									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Filippo First you only talk about Multiplayer. Second sorry but I totaly disagree. Just cos you've been lucky 1 or 2 times in MP doesn't make the War Chariot any good. In MP, yeah you could use the chariot to lead early attacks to your neighbour. So what ? It's not any superior unit, it doesn't make any big difference in combat, attacking a city defended by spearmen will get you with a 1:2 loss ratio at least, plus even assuming you reduce your neighbour to a ìn archeologist site... again: so what ? You play 1v1 ? There will be other Civs, which will crush you on the long time because they had a good GA and you didn't. And yes GA matters and a lot. Of course having it at the age of war chariots will only make you think it's useless. If it is 1v1 then trust me, by the time you met your opponent he will have horsemen. All this without considering that if your neighbours are separated from you by mountains, forests, jugles, swamps, hills, etc... well guys, again, by the time you reach them your shining war chariot will be so outdated to be shown in your enemies museums.

You seem to ramble, but you miss the point that a War Chariot is essentially a half-price horseman. That means the Egypt can have 2x the horsmen for the same cost. TWICE AS MANY.

EDIT: well, 2/3's the cost, so half again as many