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Drachen
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I played 3 starts as Russia in a mod where the scout had 100 moves and 1 shield cost on a 200*200 map. I obtained dozens of techs each time while my rival was researching tech #1 and never generated a SGL. I didn't continue the experiment to statistical certainty but I think it's unlikely that goody huts yield leaders.
I did get a SGL in a Mayan Beta game about the time my tanks came online but they did seem more plentiful before I patched.
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Drachen
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Thanks for the statistical help Lockstep. Your inference that I can't have had dozens of techs from goody huts seems valid since I didn’t get a single tech from a hut after exiting the ancient age in a further run of 3 experiments in which I opened many huts post age advance. I did however get Literature, Monarchy and Republic in each test. Also, I failed to mention that I had set the starting tech # to zero for all players and had limited the number of players to two, i.e., Russia and Rome. Therefore I actually was the first player to 21 techs each time I ran the experiment and I have run it a total of six times now without generating a SGL. If my rusty math skills don’t mislead me then updating the numbers yields the following… (1 - .05) ^ (6*21) = 0.00156 or 0.156 % chance of not getting a SGL for Russia. I don’t recall how to obtain p values etc and I really don’t feel like looking it up so I’ll leave any further analysis of the results to those more able than myself if they so choose.
Cheers
Last edited by Drachen on 11-01-2004 at 21:42
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Catt
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California - SF Bay Area
May 2002
time: 21:33
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quote:
Originally posted by lockstep
Interesting - now I'm also inclined to think that goody hut techs don't yield SGL's. |
I was interested in Drachen's results and set up a test scenario myself to check on SGLs from techs discovered from huts. With 180 techs from huts, popped by a scientific civ, not one single SGL. I calculate those odds, if SGLS were in fact possible fro hut techs, at 1/100% (0.95^180). I too am now inclined to believe in Drachen's thesis.
quote:
BTW, the 'player must be still in the ancient age' condition was, IIRC, a Firaxis/Breakaway quote. But obviously it is possible to get missing ancient techs by huts after one has advanced to the middle ages. |
Based on my test scenario, I think the Firaxian statement is correct. You cannot pop a tech from a hut that you are currently researching. So, if you're researching a required tech and popping lots of huts, you'll eventually get Literature, Monarchy, and Republic. But if you're researching any of the three optional techs, you'll eventually advance into the Medieval Age via hut techs and from then on never have a chance to pop the optional ancient age techs from huts.
Catt 
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Drachen
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Thanks lockstep and Catt. Ya gotta love reproducible results. I noted in my mod that I could get techs I was currently researching but it may be that my changing the rules in the editor caused some unusual behavior. I’ll try to attach a screenshot zip.
 Attachment: goody.zip
This has been downloaded 5 time(s).
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Drachen
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Congratulations Skywalker. My best was 3 SGL and the game gets very easy when that happens doesn't it?
Catt...I downloaded your zip and ran the save game. Did you place all those huts by Hand? Whew! At any rate, in this case I did get Philosophy after I popped a hut and immediately thereafter I got a message that said I had learned the secrets of the wheel etc. You have noted that that the two events show different screens and I maintain that I got Map Making while researching it. I will follow with the caveat that the fine American bourbon I'm having before diner may be interfering with my research efforts...but the zips do seem persuasive nonetheless.
Attachment: wheel.zip
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:33
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I got an absurd string of good luck last night. Playing Greece, Standard, 8 civs, Monarch, unpatched.
3 ancient age SGLs. Pyramids, Great Library, Sun Tzu, all free (IIRC, I got an SGL either from my last ancient age tech, or the free tech I got - feudalism. Hence Sun Tzu).
I fired up Conquests to mess around with settler pumps and the timing and manner in which I "shut them off" as per the other thread, and this was the result. Actually, it was my second main try (several others with terrible terrain were tossed). The first didn't go well for multiple reasons, but primarily because I lost focus and didn't follow my own plan (I didn't build nearly enough workers). I think, however, that I saw the AI use an ultra-early SGL for the first time ever, though. In between turns, the game did that telltale little slowdown/hiccup it does when a leader is created. The very next turn, in 14somethingorother BC, the Iroquois built the Pyramids. Too bad for me, since I got a SGL from the very next tech I researched. But anyway, like I said, I lost focus in that game (why was I sitting around with ~1500 gold and access to iron, and NOT doing a mass warrior -> sword upgrade to go on a killing spree? I've no idea what I was thinking). Then the Zulu invaded and triggered my GA in despotism, which I despise.
Anyway, in the second game (with the 3 SGLs) I did something I cannot recall ever doing while at peace: staying in despotism long after I had the republic. I researched Code of Laws first, and then Philo second, so Republic was the free tech. I had it very early. But I then went ahead and researched literature, math, currency, construction and monotheism (50 turn pace on that one) before finally making the switch. The reason was simple: I had so many units (hordes of workers... at one point getting up to ~45 of them) that I thought the support costs would be too high, especially when I only had 2 luxuries. I needed time to build marketplaces & temples at the very least. I now wish I'd saved the game back when I got republic, so that one could test out how brutal the support costs would have been. I kept my pumps going longer than I have in the past, building worker after worker, and using these to develop terrain in a hurry, with the intention of then using them to boost the pop of various cities from size 7->12. The pump cities themselves grew to 12 on their own, pretty much. I think I may have added 1 worker each to Athens and Sparta.
Curraghs and Galleys have brought me contact with the rest of the world. That gave me an extra influx of cash, because the overseas civs were at first isolated and at least 2 of them had built up decent gold reserves (one had 200g, the other ~150). The tech lead is, well, what one would expect when one is granted three of the best wonders in the game for free (the very best AI civ is still 1 or 2 techs short of getting out of the ancient age). I upgraded a bunch of warriors straight to med inf (90g a pop, ouch), built some horsemen, and smacked down the weakest civ in the game (Russia). This gave me my 3rd luxury... Ivory. The Statue of Zeus completed 12 turns later in Athens. Not that I need it, but it's nice to have, right? 
I intend to have fun with overseas imperialism in this one. I've no need to crush the other civs (France, Carthage) on my continent, especially since this is unpatched so the FP is useless. It's all about luxuries now, and seeing just how far I can push that tech lead. Hmm, I need more galleys. Lots more.
Challenge? Clearly not. The game was pretty much over when I rushed the Pyramids. But I'm having a blast anyway.
-Arrian
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Aqualung71
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Lord Desolator of the Desolation Row, C3CDG
Oct 2002
time: 12:33
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AT LAST!!! FINALLY!!!
After playing many more Conquest games than is healthy over the last 2 and a half months, I have now just generated my first SGL! I guess that proves my copy of the game is not broken (at least, no more broken than everybody else's....ouch!). Another distinct possibility is it shows how bad a player I am!
A question - can you keep more than 1 SGL at a time? I know you can't with MGL's.
On the science question, I used my SGL for the Science GA since it was late Industrial and no wonders in sight. I recall it reduced the turns to research Radio from 8 to 7 (not 25%, but rounding I guess), so nothing spectacular.
To my simple brain, a 25% research bonus over 20 turns effectively saves you an aggregate of 5 turns regardless of what you're researching. Depending on your game circumstances, this could be incredibly valuable if it gives you earlier techs that you can sell back to the AI for other techs, cash and gpt....I've always assumed that selling techs for gpt is a way for the human player to slow down the AI research rate. Any comments?
However, comparing the benefit of a "5 research turn reduction" to the value of an individual improvementswonder in one city only is not that easy.
So what's the consensus of opinion out there? I don't get the impression that many players use an SGL for the science bonus.
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vulture
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Leeds, UK
Jun 2001
time: 05:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Thriller
AT LAST!!! FINALLY!!!
After playing many more Conquest games than is healthy over the last 2 and a half months, I have now just generated my first SGL! I guess that proves my copy of the game is not broken (at least, no more broken than everybody else's....ouch!). Another distinct possibility is it shows how bad a player I am!
A question - can you keep more than 1 SGL at a time? I know you can't with MGL's.
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You can have more than 1 at the same time. IIRC someone did a test on the strategy forum by setting every tech to give a bonus tech, so they got the entire tech tree in one turn, and got multiple SGLs out of it. Quite a cunning test, I thought.
quote:
On the science question, I used my SGL for the Science GA since it was late Industrial and no wonders in sight. I recall it reduced the turns to research Radio from 8 to 7 (not 25%, but rounding I guess), so nothing spectacular.
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Imagine, for the sake of argument, that radio costs 800 beakers. If you can get it in 8 turns, you are producing from 100 to 114 beakers per turn. With an SGL boost, that goes up 25% to 125 to 142 beakers per turn. To get to 7 turn research you need 115, so you're guaranteed to get that. To get to 6 turn research, you need 134, which isn't guaranteed. However it means you can either generate more cash along with 7 turn research (you'll be able to lower the slider for the last turn more than you would with no boost) or you'll be able to alternate between your current science setting and 10% higher, to get radio in 6 turns while effectively breaking even. So you can get the full effect, but you have to work at it.
Another thing to bear in mind - research times drop by 20%, not 25%. You get a 25% boost to your science output. If O is your old science production, and N is the new, then:
N = 5/4 O
the old time taken is To = B / O (B is no. of beakers needed). New time taken is:
Tn = B / N = 4/5 B / O = 4/5 To = 0.8 To
So you don't knock 25% off the research time, but 20% (so radio should take 6.4 turns, which means 7, in a simple estimate).
quote:
To my simple brain, a 25% research bonus over 20 turns effectively saves you an aggregate of 5 turns regardless of what you're researching. Depending on your game circumstances, this could be incredibly valuable if it gives you earlier techs that you can sell back to the AI for other techs, cash and gpt....I've always assumed that selling techs for gpt is a way for the human player to slow down the AI research rate. Any comments? |
Saving 5 turns is true, despite the appearance of what I wrote above, because you are saving 20% of the research time on 25 turns of research, doing it in 20 turns instead. But you may have to play around with the slider to save all 5 turns, rather than converting it to extra cash.
Selling techs to the AI doesn't slow them down - if anything it speeds them up. It just speeds you up more by allowing you to run at 100% science, so yuo can pull away from them (overlooking the fact that the trailers can research different techs and trade with each other, while you have to research everything yourself).
Assuming the AIs all have banks and universities built in equal abundance, it doesn't make much difference whether their trade goes into research or buying techs off you at full price - they end up with the same number of techs per 20 turns either way. The exception to this is the tech leader, who will pay up to double the value of the tech, so he can be slowed down if you get the full amount. In practice though, I think most people will sell techs for way below their asking price, because if they don't, other AIs will as soon as you've sold the tech to one of them. Knowing that Scientific method is worth 100 gpt to a civ, would you accept 30 gpt from them if that is all they can afford if you know they'll buy it from your main rival for 30 gpt next turn anyway? Net result, all the trailing civs get to keep up, buying techs from you for a fraction of their value. The reason they have so little gold free is either they are doing their own research (not that common) or because they are already funneling all their own gold into the coffers of your main competitor.
I'm gradually coming around to the idea that selling off techs lets the AI catch up with you sooner (especially if you already have enough income to stick at 100% science), whilst it also speeds you up, but not as much. Whether this is worth it, or whether you'd prefer to slow yourself down, slow them down more, and have more money disappear from circulation into research is probably dependent on the game situation and how you want to win.
Best way to slow the AI down - start a war with the main researcher amongst them, and get everyone to join in.
quote:
However, comparing the benefit of a "5 research turn reduction" to the value of an individual improvementswonder in one city only is not that easy.
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I'd guess that in the ancient and medieval eras, the wonders are almost always a better bet. There may be exceptions (if the only wonder available is the great wall, although that's been beefed up now), but wonders will do much more for you over the course of the game. Early industrial, you definitely want ToE and Hoover. If you know you have prebuilds timed nicely for them then it might be worth using it for the science boost. Maybe you'd prefer to keep it for the Suffrage. Post Suffrage, I don't think I'd keep one for the early modern wonders unless the tech race was very close., so then I'd use it for the mini-GA. But I don't think I've ever had a game yet where the Ai was in a position to compete for any of the modern wonders even without my using prebuilds.
So what's the consensus of opinion out there? I don't get the impression that many players use an SGL for the science bonus. [/QUOTE]
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Mountain Sage
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quote:
Originally posted by Theseus
I think we are going to see a lot more late departures from Despotism. |
Absolutely, or a revival of the old Despotism-Monarchy-Republic (or even Demo) road, especially if you have many units.
Feudalism seems to be something intermediate between Monarchy and Republic. I stayed in Feudalism during my whole game on my Viking's domination game.
Any experience with Feudalism?
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Aqualung71
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Lord Desolator of the Desolation Row, C3CDG
Oct 2002
time: 12:33
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quote:
Originally posted by vulture
Selling techs to the AI doesn't slow them down - if anything it speeds them up. It just speeds you up more by allowing you to run at 100% science, so yuo can pull away from them (overlooking the fact that the trailers can research different techs and trade with each other, while you have to research everything yourself).
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Yes, of course selling techs to the AI will move them forward in the tech race immediately. Where I was coming from was the idea that if you sell scientific method to the leading AI for 150gpt, for example, then that gives it a lot less available gpt to increase its research rate or to generate gold to buy techs from other AI civs, so this will slow them down overall. At the same time, it gives you more gpt avaiable to increase your own research rate. Of course, you really need to sell techs to all AI's on the same turn if you can, soaking up whatever gpt they have available (assuming your reputation still allows you to). Then you watch your current deals and whenever a gpt is up for expiry, you try to repeat.
I'm not sure however, whether the combination of these factors would help you pull away from the AI's in tech, or help bring them closer to you. I've found that a tech lead can be quickly eroded when AI's are researching different techs and in a couple of turns you can move form being 5 in front to being almost equal. This is when you kick yourself for not selling them the techs first!
I guess there's no hard and fast rule on this issue. As you've said, it depends largely on your game position and your objectives.
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Guynemer
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Perhaps this has already been addressed, but are some techs much more likely (as in guaranteed) to produce a SGL for the first to discover them?
I've played a pair of games since C3C, one as the French and one as the Yanks, and in both I received a SGL with philosophy and democracy.
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10-01-2004 06:16
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