 |
|
Brutalisk
|
|
quote:
"Arid and Swamp are the same;
after them come Desert and Tundra;
and then everything else ...." |
Bakalov, I am not sure what you tried to say there, but,
Arid and Swamp need only one transformation to be turned into Terran. And they are not the same. If you are not Aquatic, swamp offers very little space, if you are, it acts like a terran.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
P-K
|
|
I like SMAC and CIV too. Both good strategic games, but moo offers much more ! Hmm, I think we lost main subject here : tol topic !
PK
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Croesus
|
 |
Core Prime
Mar 2004
time: 22:33
|
|
Ok, I might be guilty of rezzing threads, but it is either that, or starting redundant threads.
I feel that tolerant is good, but too expensive. I prefer to go aquatic because at the begining you get +50% food, +3/4 population (matching the tolerant). With unification, you get 4.5 food per farmer, so you just need 2 at the begining. This means one less farmer, or one more worker.
Compare:
uni tol versus aquatic uni +1 prod (medium HW)
1. 2 scienctist, then you get 3 worker giving 14 industry
versus 4 workers giving (4*(5+1)*(50%) - (pollution) =
36 - (18-3)= 21 (50% more)
2. no scientist, giving you 5 workers or 23 production
versus
6 workers giving (6*(5+1)*1.5 - pollution) = 54 - 27+3 = 30 (30% more).
Suppose later you colonize a few worlds. To help you out, they won't be arid, swampy, terran, or ocean. You have 5 pop on two of them, and they are medium barren rich. Your max pop is 8, mine is 4. Assume you also have hydroponics (otherwise this really gets unfair). To support these world, you need 3 food each (so 6 total), and we will assume you have 10 pop on your HW.
your homeworld needs 5 farmers (to produce 15 food+2 for home hydro) and produces 14 industry from 4 workers, with 2 scientist. Each of your barrens produces 28. Total industry = 70.
I'll have 12 on my HW, and 4 on each barren, and have 3 farmers to produce 15 food + 2 for the Hydroponic, and have an excess 1 food. 7 on mining give 34 for the homeworld, and 22 for the expansion worlds. Total of 78 industry.
If the planets were abundant, then I'd get 15, while you would get 12, but my homeworld would get 34 still, while yours is still at 14.
With autofactories, you gain a slight advantage, until I get pollution processors. With 7 worker on my homeworld, I would get 62, and 34 on the expansions (this assumes an autofact and a pollution processor), while you would get 29, and your expansions would get 50. Totals are 130 (me) versus 129.
Addtionally, it might be more fair to give me an extra population because I was ahead 50% to 30% at the begining. (I could have spent the extra few turns building housing, or doing research into pollution processors).
So it seems that tolerant means that you can expand on rich (or richer) worlds better. Whereas aquatic + industry and rich means you are have a better start, and you are more flexible if you have to colonize a abundant world, or a swampy, arid, or ocean world.
Last edited by Croesus on 31-03-2004 at 02:51
|
|
| |
|
|
|
vmxa1
|
 |
Oviedo, Fl
Nov 2001
time: 21:33
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Croesus
I feel that tolerant is good, but too expensive. I prefer to go aquatic because at the begining you get +50% food, +3/4 population (matching the tolerant). With unification, you get 4.5 food per farmer, so you just need 2 at the begining. This means one less farmer, or one more worker.
Compare:
uni tol versus aquatic uni +1 prod (medium HW)
1. 2 scienctist, then you get 3 worker giving 14 industry
versus 4 workers giving (4*(5+1)*(50%) - (pollution) =
36 - (18-3)= 21 (50% more)
2. no scientist, giving you 5 workers or 23 production
versus
6 workers giving (6*(5+1)*1.5 - pollution) = 54 - 27+3 = 30 (30% more).
|
I am to lazy right now to go through this, but the UniTol with be +P and LHW most likely. It will be in a mineral rich world.
This yields 3 on food for +1 and if 5 on production it yields 30 industry and 9BC. You will not have any pollution you are tolerant.
You will be hard pressed to out produce this race and it will love all of those UR worlds. I would note that your race is a very strong race, but I just don't see any stronger than this one.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Iasius
|
|
Germany
Jan 2003
time: 05:33
|
|
The only time I will use tolerant is when I'm also lithovore. Just makes for awesome expansion early and combined with research labs on so many worlds you can even be good techwise.
For the comparison of the production you should probably make that uni/tol/+1prod vs. aqua/uni/+2prod/RHW as one should take the race picks difference into account.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Croesus
|
|
Core Prime
Mar 2004
time: 22:33
|
|
Unification: 6
Tolerant: 10
Production +1: 3
Large Home World: 1
Total 20 points
aquatic: 5
Production +1: 3
Unification: 6
Warlord: 4
Rich Home World : 2
Strategy: Forget larger ships and lots of starbases, or taxing your economy. Use destroyers, and research B-scanners instead of tachyon communications.
I will have to say that Auto factories are easy to get, and they will boost a tolerant much better than what I was proposing, more noticably on a more heavily industrial world.
With +1 prod, tolerant homeworld would match mine at the no scientist level (which I doubt you would do). Also, because I would need pollution processors to keep up, a tolerant would have merculite missiles, and I would need to maybe put one of the extra population on science, especially at the begining to get research facility.
However, I have found that warlord gives me about 150% more command points over what I get from starbases and stuff. This is in my games against a computer and being creative, which means I get tachyon, and other things to increase CP. It also makes invading planets more valuable, because they grant 2 CP.
Therfore warlord save you production in that you won't have to build as many starbases (for CP, and you can use more destroyers), and you won't have to tax as heavy, if at all to support your fleet.
I just did some quick math, but maybe
Tolerant
Unification
Cybernetic
Might be better. It is better on worlds that are abundant or better, because you don't have to worry about food as much, so it puts less strain on your homeworld's food production, and you repair your ships during combat, and after battles. So you don't get the +1 production(which traslates into +1.5 per worker), but since your people cost half as much food, you need about half the farmers(maybe less), which could be put on production, and you don't worry about the extra pollution. Once Auto Factories are researched, the +1 prod is less important. Borg anyone?
Last edited by Croesus on 01-04-2004 at 23:50
|
|
| |
|
|
|
P-K
|
|
I just saw ur replay Croesus. Somehow i didnt notice it earlier. So i respond now. I am happy u wrote so much !
Croesus :
"I feel that tolerant is good, but too expensive. I prefer to go aquatic because at the begining you get +50% food, +3/4 population (matching the tolerant). With unification, you get 4.5 food per farmer, so you just need 2 at the begining. This means one less farmer, or one more worker."
"+3/4 population (matching the tolerant). " I dont really understand this. Aqa cannot match tol in pop sizes of planets in most of games. U must be really lucky to get many aqa planets to match tol. This happens rare.
Yes u get +50% more food till soils are developed by tol. Ofcourse i remember aqa will get cloners. In about 5% games tol will also have cloners due to gaia/natives planets.
Of course u got less man on food at start, which can be set for produce. Aqa has 6 man on prod on a rich planet (with +1 or +2 prod) to tol : 5 man on prod on abnt planet. Aqa : 6 or 7 turns per cbase to 7 turns for tol.
It seems to be worse for tol. Less research with same or worse prod doesnt look good. But it is just begging ...
Croesus :
" Suppose later you colonize a few worlds. To help you out, they won't be arid, swampy, terran, or ocean. You have 5 pop on two of them, and they are medium barren rich. Your max pop is 8, mine is 4. Assume you also have hydroponics (otherwise this really gets unfair). To support these world, you need 3 food each (so 6 total), and we will assume you have 10 pop on your HW. "
Assume tol will go for hydro ? Why ? Hydro are a waste of prod and time. Most guys develop bios, which is a right thing to do ! So it is 6 to 10 max pop on medium barren/toxic/desert/radiated.
Croesus :
"With autofactories, you gain a slight advantage, until I get pollution processors. With 7 worker on my homeworld, I would get 62, and 34 on the expansions (this assumes an autofact and a pollution processor), while you would get 29, and your expansions would get 50. Totals are 130 (me) versus 129. "
Pollution proc are sweet but what abou merc missle ? Not having this superb weapon causes problems to kill a cre race and problems in fights.
Croesus :
"So it seems that tolerant means that you can expand on rich (or richer) worlds better. Whereas aquatic + industry and rich means you are have a better start, and you are more flexible if you have to colonize a abundant world, or a swampy, arid, or ocean world."
Yes u have a better start. But starts doesnt win the game. While time goes other planets are more important then your hw.
I saw that ur calculations are for uni tol vs rich prod aqa. What about uni tol prod vs aqa lr 2 prod ?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
P-K
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Croesus
Tolerant
Unification
Cybernetic
Might be better. It is better on worlds that are abundant or better, because you don't have to worry about food as much, so it puts less strain on your homeworld's food production, and you repair your ships during combat, and after battles. So you don't get the +1 production(which traslates into +1.5 per worker), but since your people cost half as much food, you need about half the farmers(maybe less), which could be put on production, and you don't worry about the extra pollution. Once Auto Factories are researched, the +1 prod is less important. Borg anyone? |
Cybernetic race gives u 25 % pop on food compared to 33 % of normal rate. Also cybernetic acts like -1 prod (1.5 for uni) and without 1 prod bonus (no free points left for tol race) it is really slow and low productive. Only ships are awesome.
+1 prod is awesome for tol and other races. It is very important for all game time. Gives faster start and more pop.
PK
Last edited by P-K on 02-04-2004 at 18:14
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Croesus
|
|
Core Prime
Mar 2004
time: 22:33
|
|
vmxa1-
Yes I stuck in another race for reference, because I usually have a problem with Command Points. I am using a Creative race as a comparison, since I believe that creative races have more command points as any other non-warlord race, if they have the same amount of starbases and battlestations. Creative races will get the Tachyon Communications, and stuff. Non-creative have a choice. What I was trying to say was picking warlord can help you out because you can get tons of Command Points by your colonies instead of Starbases, thereby either chosing battle scanners or tachyon scanners (not likely this one) instead of tachyon communications, and that warlord is useful even if you have all the CP increasing tech.
I was just playing a game with a unif-cyb-tol race and I was 10 points over the CP. I had about 5 colonies, and 5 starbases. It was about turn 50. I had 2 battleships,and 2 cruiser, 2 destroyers. In order to support a fleet, I had to put the tax rate to 20-30. If I had warlord, I wouldn't have need a tax rate to support a fleet. I think that the race I proposed (aqua, +p, unif, war) could nearly produce as the tolerant one on most planets, except that it could support a larger fleet. From what I have been able to see, a race with warlord would need to produce only 70% of the production of a tolerant race, until the fleets get really big, such as to the point of the tol-unif race using 50% of its industry to support a fleet. About how many colonies would the race have at this point?
Therfore I think that warlord might be a better pick at the begining. However, I'd rather test it. Picking warlord does mean you chose techs differently.
Speaking of chosing techs, which early techs do you chose for the unif, tol, +p, LHW? Do you take autofactories or heavy armor? Tachyon communications or battle scanner? Research lab(I would take this, then use missiles for a while) or computers? Soil enrichment, or Cloning center?
P-K
First, explaining what wasn't clear in my post. I apologize for that. What I meant was +3/4 max pop on your homeworld. For ocean worlds (we can assume there are about 4-5 per galaxy) aquatic gets double what a tolerant would.
In general, a tolerant race will have more max population.
Playing the Cybernetic Tol, I decided to get hydroponics instead of biospheres. What this meant was any planet that could only support 5 pop (like a small ultrarich toxic) would need just a hydroponic farm, which meant less demand for planets that can grow food, meaning I could colonize all the rich worlds, and still have people on my homeworld working or researching.
The first thing I researched was hydroponic farms. Seeing that my homeworld had a demand of only 4 food, after getting farms I only had one farmer instead of 3 (which is what a unif with 8 pop on a terran would need without a hydroponic farm). Those two 'extra ' were put on production, and generated 9 industry, which fed my mineral munching borg, and gave me 5 more. Doing some quick math I see that that if both had one scientist, then the cybers are 1 production behind. If there are no scientist, then they are 3 behind.
On other worlds the cyber race is still behind, except if you take into account the food that other worlds will eat. A cyber race would have a more consistent production, as the difference in production of the farming worlds and the industrial worlds will be smaller.
Before we go farther I have a few questions. What is the general strategy of the unif-tol-+p race? From what I can tell when playing such a race, is that you quickly move your people off the homeworld onto rich or ultrarich places and industrialize, using the homeworld to provide food. After a few planets you start to build ships with nukes.
My question is: What techs are you planning on getting (we can't assume that all races would want the same techs)? How many ships before you attack, and about what turn? How many colonies will you have when you start to attack, and how many Starbases or command points? If you are over, how much do you plan on taxing?
After we get these answered, or atleast approximated, I can better understand what is happening with this race.
|
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:33.
Apolyton Time is 00:33. |
top of page
|
|
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
23-02-2004 18:39
He does mention in his post further down the dry vs wet transformations... I guess to everyone else that is reading, when you are tranforming a planet and you forget what comes up next the description of terraforming actually tells you anyhow 
|