08-01-2004 16:13									#1
	c3c unfair to democracies Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I got to play a little with c3c since I got it 2 weeks ago (at last...) and although I like most of the changes done the more I am playing the more I'm becoming annoyed about the change done to the democratic type of government .
1.democracy becomes very inferior compared to other systems of governments. even when I played for cultural or other non aggresive victory the unit doubling cost is so prohibitive I could barely afford to defend adequtely my cities.I am left then with either having some defence (by cosiderably moving most of my resources to buliding units) and watching other non dem civs bypass me by all measures or not having decent defence and praying other civs dont notice. when I do get attacked ,even with mobilization, it is nearly impossible to crank out enough units for defence (and that is before the older problem of war weariness) unless my attacker is very tech inferior and the only choice left is to switch gov type.
2.this completely unbalances the different gov types and combined with the great stenghs of facism and the secret police headquaters wonder for communism in an average game in higer difficulties(where wars, no matter i'll give the AI ,are unpreventable from time to time) or Mp it is simply not worth choosing democratic gov type.the monetary and productivity benefits aren't worth the cost in shoddy defences or lower building capabilities of my civ(wasting double the time on building every unit)
3. it is also historically inaccurate.for all the talk about 500 dollar screwdrivers manufacturing military equiptment didnt (and doesnt) cost that much more in democratic gov then in dictatorial gov. if it would be so in reality we all now would be communists (or facist ''). a higher unit cost of 10-30 % more for democracies would be more accurate and also balance the game without making democratic gov so inferior.
4. this would also prevent giving the wrong messages to players thatfiraxis was so careful about in the past (which is why ,to my knowledge ,there was no facism in the original civ3 and 2 and still no fundamentalism now in civ 3 or c3c)
so please firaxis be fairer to democracies and lower unit costs for democracies and make (civ) world safe for democracies again

	08-01-2004 18:03									#2
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Democracy wasn't changed in Conquests, only the Republican government had its unit support cost doubled.

	08-01-2004 18:37									#3
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

To lower the cost any more would be to make some units free. In a democracy, you pay your military.

	08-01-2004 20:21									#4
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Well, the real probelm with Democracy is that Republic is too superior.

Let me explain.

If you have less then 6 units per city (7-12 pop), Republic is better.
If you have less then 8 units per metropolis (13+ pop), Republic is better.

Yes, slightly lower corruption and worker bonus help, but still, if you don't have too much units in Republic, it will still be better then Democracy.


And I somehow don't think that goals of C3C were too make Republic better then in PtW.

Suggested fix: Change free unit in republic to 1/2/2 (town/city/metro)

That would keep Democracy better in most cases.

	08-01-2004 20:45									#5
	Re: c3c unfair to democracies Inflate your Upload Space

To my knowledge, Democracy wasn't changed in C3C, though other forms of government have gotten a boost, as you noted. But Democracy shouldn't be any more ineffective than it was.

quote: Originally posted by dovlvn 4. this would also prevent giving the wrong messages to players thatfiraxis was so careful about in the past (which is why ,to my knowledge ,there was no facism in the original civ3 and 2 and still no fundamentalism now in civ 3 or c3c)

Actually, Sid Meier claimed that Fundamentalism was left out not because it was a touchy issue (I don't think anybody worth mentioning ever complained about it), but because they simply couldn't get it to be balanced. I'm thinking that they decided to put in Fascism and not Fundamentalism in C3C just for something new (in practice a fascist state isn't really all that different from some fundy states)...if anything I think Fascism would be a more touchy issue than Fundy. And I'm assuming they didn't put Fascism in the previous games because they just didn't need another form of government.

- Kef

	16-01-2004 16:24									#6
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I usually use Republic for most of the games since it is a great system of government. BUT, democracy is actually better when your empire grows.

	16-01-2004 18:40									#7
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I prefer Democracy as I usually see a benefit from lower corruption in large empires in PTW. As corruption in C3C doesn't seem to be fully sorted yet I think it is too early to call.

	16-01-2004 21:06									#8
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Oh, it's sorted now. It seems the 1.13 model is the one that's going to stick.

- Kef

	16-01-2004 21:52									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

When my civ gets really large, of course I change it to Demo, because it will help fight corruption a bit.