08-01-2004 22:49									#1
	Fantasy Baseball Discussion Put an end to popups!

I know it's early, but let's avoid making changes after the season has started this time. Here are my suggestions:

Lot's of categories with more on offense. The more the merrier even if some are redundant.

Offense

At Bats (not that important)
Hits
Runs
Doubles
Homers
RBI
Stolen Bases
Total bases
Avg
On base percentage (reward sluggers who walk alot)
Slugging percentage
OPS? Combined On base and slugging?

If AB's are dropped, IP's could be dropped to maintain more offensive categories.

Pitching

Innings pitched
wins
losses
saves
ERA
strike outs
walks
hits given up
homers given up
K's/9 innings
K's to walks ratio

That's 12 offense and 11 pitching.

Last time we had to add a minimum number of IP's every week after the season started to prevent people from starting only top closers and maybe a top starter. Is there a way we can avoid doing that this time? If not, that's not a big problem. I think it was a good solution to a sticky problem that really could have ruined the league as everyone dropped many starters and focused on closers and middle relievers.

Last year I thought weekly roster changes would detract from the game play since losing a player to injury early in the week could cost someone a week's matchup but it turned out to be fairly decent. Did anyone lose a week due to injury? Imran opposed daily roster changes because of problems inherent to that option including the participants inability to manage their teams on a daily basis and while I still would like to try daily roster changes, weekly changes didn't cause the problem I predicted. Of course, at the time I thought the ranks were strictly determined by the weekly win-loss record when in fact it was based on categories, i.e., if you went 7-8 for the week, you lost the week but you still got credit for 7 categories with a debit of 8 (am I remembering that right?)

I'm curious how the FFZ league dealt with the problems of daily roster changes. I mean, if you can pick up and drop second tier pitchers and plug them in on a daily basis, you can obviously run up some of the categories like K's, wins, saves, and Innings pitched. But such a strategy can also hurt since lesser pitchers will detract from categories like K/BB, K/9 inn, ERA, losses, and hits and homers given up if we have those categories. And then you could do that with hitters too since teams average about 6 games a week you could plug in a bunch of guys playing on the off days of your other players. Smaller rosters would seem to penalize such a strategy as people might have to drop good players to make room for the daily plug in players.

I think last year was a very good first effort even if the start was a bit rough because of the settings change to prevent the sneakier managers from subverting the concept of actually having pitchers start games and throw more than 1 inning.
But I'm still concerned with the injury problem ala weekly roster changes even though that didn't seem to make or break anyone's season last year. At this point I'm leaning toward weekly roster changes over daily because I can see some problems with that system too. FFZ vets can chime in to explain if and how these problems were handled...

	09-01-2004 00:21									#2
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I obliterated that consolation bracket last year

quote: Last time we had to add a minimum number of IP's every week after the season started to prevent people from starting only top closers and maybe a top starter. Is there a way we can avoid doing that this time? If not, that's not a big problem. I think it was a good solution to a sticky problem that really could have ruined the league as everyone dropped many starters and focused on closers and middle relievers.

Minimum Innings pitched But as long as we agree to it BEFORE the season starts, I don't see the problem.

quote: Last year I thought weekly roster changes would detract from the game play since losing a player to injury early in the week could cost someone a week's matchup but it turned out to be fairly decent. Did anyone lose a week due to injury? Imran opposed daily roster changes because of problems inherent to that option including the participants inability to manage their teams on a daily basis and while I still would like to try daily roster changes, weekly changes didn't cause the problem I predicted.

Doesn't make a difference to me, weekly changes save everybody time and everyone has the same chance to be affected by injury. But right now I have more than enough time to make daily changes, so I won't complain either way.

quote: I think last year was a very good first effort even if the start was a bit rough because of the settings change to prevent the sneakier managers from subverting the concept of actually having pitchers start games and throw more than 1 inning.

Having more than 20 catagories is too many, there are just too many things you have to worry about each week (or each day)

For Hitting...
Hits
Runs
HRs
RBI
SB
TB
AVG
OPS
and maybe walks

For Pitching...
W
L
SV
ERA
K
WHIP
Hits Allowed
K/BB

but thats just my idea....

	09-01-2004 00:33									#3
	Re: Fantasy Baseball Discussion Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Offense

My vote: batting average, OPS, hits, runs scored, RBI, SB, walks, total bases, HR. (If any of those can be cut, then cut TB.)

quote: Pitching

Wins, losses, saves, holds (if possible), ERA, strikeouts, WHIP, K/BB, complete games.

and while I'm at it... positions:

Position players: C, 1B, 2B, 3B, SS, CF, OF, OF, Util. (Basically, this prevents people from taking three corner outfielders, like I did last year. )
Pitchers: SP, SP, SP, SP, RP, RP, RP (or P).
Total number of players that can be carried at any one time: 20 (16 starters, 4 on the bench)

quote: Last time we had to add a minimum number of IP's every week after the season started to prevent people from starting only top closers and maybe a top starter. Is there a way we can avoid doing that this time? If not, that's not a big problem. I think it was a good solution to a sticky problem that really could have ruined the league as everyone dropped many starters and focused on closers and middle relievers.

Same as SS. I don't mind minimum IP, so long as we agree on what it'll be before the season. How about 18 IP as a minimum?

quote: Last year I thought weekly roster changes would detract from the game play since losing a player to injury early in the week could cost someone a week's matchup but it turned out to be fairly decent. Did anyone lose a week due to injury? Imran opposed daily roster changes because of problems inherent to that option including the participants inability to manage their teams on a daily basis and while I still would like to try daily roster changes, weekly changes didn't cause the problem I predicted. Of course, at the time I thought the ranks were strictly determined by the weekly win-loss record when in fact it was based on categories, i.e., if you went 7-8 for the week, you lost the week but you still got credit for 7 categories with a debit of 8 (am I remembering that right?)

no real preference here. Being the lazy bum that I am, I lean toward weekly changes, but I can handle daily changes.

	09-01-2004 00:53									#4
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I'll trade you the Texas Rangers, in total, for a starting pitcher and a bucket of hot wings.
From that point I'll be ahead of current ownership.

	09-01-2004 00:54									#5
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Fantasy Baseball!!! Woohoo!!!

I agree with everything Vlad said.

Also, I wouldn't mind daily roster changes (especially after Jeter got injured in game one ).

	09-01-2004 01:42									#6
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quote: But as long as we agree to it BEFORE the season starts, I don't see the problem.

I saw a potential cheat and wanted to remedy it. I did for the league .

quote: weekly roster changes

I'd keep. I'm playing in Apolyton Fantasy Hockey and daily roster changes are a PAIN in the ass! Baseball would be even more so with rain delays affecting when pitchers would be starting, etc.

Offensive Catagories

Hits
Runs
HRs
RBIs
SB
TB
BA
OBP
SLG

Pitching Catagories

Wins
Loses
Saves
ERA
SOs
K/BB
WHIP
Hits Allowed

	09-01-2004 03:04									#7
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Oops, I forgot all about the positions. I like 10 since it's easier to do averages but 9 is cool for better realism (yeah I know, realism in a fantasy league?). That's an interesting twist there Vlad, having CF singled out. And we had holds in one of the open leagues I joined last year and I still don't know what the hell a hold is but I won that category anyway

I just want plenty of categories, that's the only thing I'm a stickler on. I understand the opposition to too much redundancy, so let's try to get categories that provide greater variability. Holds offer a nice addition since in our league last year middle relievers were mostly ignored and thet deserve some attention. Offensive walks as opposed to just OPS reflect sluggers who are consistently pitched around.

My revised list, asterisks next to my lowest priorities

offense

hits
runs
doubles *
homers
RBI's
stolen bases
total bases
average
walks or on base average
slugging or OPS

10 categories or 12 if we have walks, obs, slugging, and ops. If there is a better offensive category, I'd gladly vote for it over one of these 4. But walks by itself avoids being redundant if we have obs or ops and relieves some of the burden of having a slugger like Bonds who pitchers avoid so often.

Pitching

Innings pitched or weekly minimum (I think pitchers who go deeper into the game should be rewarded)

wins
losses
saves
holds (a possibility there) *
ERA
strike outs
walks
whip
homers given up *
K's/9 innings
K's to walks ratio

That's more pitching categories than hitting, but we could do away with walks or K/BB's. Whip kind of covers both hits and walks (I forgot about whip when making my list). I'd like to see opposition homers as a category if it's possible.

	09-01-2004 03:08									#8
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Oh yeah, I was thinking we could have 2 leagues, one with weekly roster changes and the 2nd with daily. That way people who love one or the other would have a league to join, I'd join both.

	09-01-2004 03:09									#9
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quote: That's an interesting twist there Vlad, having CF singled out.

Well we could have LF, CF, RF .

quote: And we had holds in one of the open leagues I joined last year and I still don't know what the hell a hold is but I won that category anyway

It's such a bullshit stat .

quote: I'd like to see opposition homers as a category if it's possible.

Eh... I'd prefer an 'opposition batting average' if it is available.

	09-01-2004 03:20									#10
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Doesn't whip cover that? Holds were cool, otherwise the middle relievers are almost completely ignored. Of course, they do get some wins and losses and if you have a good pitcher like Donnely or L Hawkins, they boost era and k's. But I just don't see why we should devote 1 category to saves and ignore the set up guys.

Oh well, this is all about whittling it down to 18-20 decent categories.

Btw folks, consider this thread the "I want to play" announcement thread.

	09-01-2004 03:31									#11
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I don't know about having LF, CF, and RF, we could but I was in a league that did that and the only reason we didn't have major problems was big rosters. Btw, I'd like to have more than 4 open spots on the roster. We don't have to go all out and have like 25 spots, but 21 or 22 would be nice.

	09-01-2004 03:31									#12
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I am easy, whatever stats make everyone happy is what I will play with. I just need to know in advance so I can get my draft strategy based on categories.
I like daily changes for baseball as long as there is a position limit.

	09-01-2004 03:33									#13
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I like bigger rosters too, 22-26 is a good area.

	09-01-2004 03:36									#14
	Put an end to popups!

Dont use any stats which are functions of others; the computer doesnt handle them well. In other words, dont use K/ BB, use strike outs and walks.

	09-01-2004 03:40									#15
	Put an end to popups!

Vlad, what's a position limit?

LoA, what do you mean by the computer having trouble?

	09-01-2004 03:45									#16
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When there are say 0 walks for a certain pitcher, it may or may not count that towards the total on K/BB (and this happened to me a lot last year)

example

Kurt Schilling 9 K, 0 BB
Mike Mussina 3 K, 4 BB

THe K/BB ratio would be 4.00. Unfortunatly, the computer will sometimes calculate the K/BB ratio as 9/0 (which is zero) + (3/4) which would be a K/BB ratio of 0.75

	09-01-2004 03:47									#17
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C, 1B, 2B, 3B, RF, CF, LF and Util I'd love to see that

SP, SP, SP, SP, RP, RP, RP, P would be nice too

I don't think the rosters should be much bigger than 20 or 21, because then the FA pool becomes rather thin at the top - although I guess this might encourage trading... and big rosters with daily changes will really kill the people who can't change their lineup every day.

So maybe 19 or 20 for daily and 21 or 22 for weekly?

	09-01-2004 03:54									#18
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quote: Doesn't whip cover that?

Some of it. Of course WHIP is walks and hits, while OBA is hits/at bat . WHIP doesn't care about at bats.

	09-01-2004 06:20									#19
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quote: example Kurt Schilling 9 K, 0 BB Mike Mussina 3 K, 4 BB THe K/BB ratio would be 4.00. Unfortunatly, the computer will sometimes calculate the K/BB ratio as 9/0 (which is zero) + (3/4) which would be a K/BB ratio of 0.75

With your display of mathematical acutemen, I wonder if it was the computer messing up

12 K's to 4 BB's is a ratio of 3.00 and 9 K's with 0 BB's isn't zero (or were you saying the computer read 9 k's and 0 bb's as 0.00?). Are you sure this happened? I kept an eye on these kinds of stats and never saw an error. But maybe you're right...

Having K's and BB's as separate categories with no K/BB's is fine with me though. Did you ever see errors in whip or other calculations? If we have just K's and BB's, I don't see much point in having K/BB or K/9 innings. But if we start eliminating stats because of overlap, we'd have to get rid of a couple more. Maybe we should go that way, but then we'd have to dump homers because of total bases and dumping total bases and keeping homers would screw doubles and triples.

I don't mind some overlap for special aspects of the game. Homers are definitely special...

hits
runs
HR
RBI
SB
TB
ave
walks
ops

wins
losses
saves
era
K's
BB's
hits allowed
holds

That's 9 and 8 for a total of 17. I think this is how I'd vote.
And an 18 IP/week is fine too, although all-star week can be a bit tricky.

	09-01-2004 08:21									#20
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I had a lot of fun playing last year, and I will probably spend more time on fantasy baseball this summer, but I would still prefer weekly roster changes. I like Vlad's positions and roster size. As for stats, I don't mind.

	09-01-2004 18:21									#21
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I like the idea of including Innings Pitched for the pitching stats. You could still stick one pitcher in and probably win a couple categories, but you'd be sure to lose most of them. But if we're going with a minimum, 18 innings sounds about right.

I'd also prefer the OF, OF, CF positions to cover the outfield. Force a centerfielder on us, but keep the corners flexible.

21 man roster sounds good - big enough to encourage some trading without becoming too unwieldy.

Oh, and I'd definitely like OPS included for the batting stats. Other than that I'm flexible.

	10-01-2004 00:24									#22
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Berz position limits are each position gets 162 starts, that allows for everyday lineup changes, but you can't go over on the position games. In the original days of online leagues they all used that system. Not sure if you can even do that with Yahoo.

	10-01-2004 00:30									#23
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quote: Oh, and I'd definitely like OPS included for the batting stats.

What about instead having OBP and SLG (which make up OPS when combined) .

	10-01-2004 00:41									#24
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Oh, and I'd definitely like OPS included for the batting stats. What about instead having OBP and SLG (which make up OPS when combined) .

A player with a good slugging percentage won't necessarily have a good on-base percentage and vice-versa. I would like to reward all-around performance, thus use OPS. In fact, I wouldn't mind including all three.

	10-01-2004 01:07									#25
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quote: I would like to reward all-around performance, thus use OPS.

Well if you want to reward all-around performance you would be against using HRs and BA, wouldn't you, since one with good BA wouldn't necessarily have a lot of HRs .

	10-01-2004 01:13									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I would like to reward all-around performance, thus use OPS. Well if you want to reward all-around performance you would be against using HRs and BA, wouldn't you, since one with good BA wouldn't necessarily have a lot of HRs .

I meant I would like one category to reward overall performance, not that all of them should.

	10-01-2004 01:17									#27
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Ahhh, I see.

Hits
Runs
HR
RBI
SB
TB
OBP
SLG
OPS

Wins
Losses
Saves
ERA
K's
BB's
Hits Allowed
WHIP

is my list so far then (you'll notice no BA... I just had it there as a placeholder... OBP is much more important and basically similar anyway).

	10-01-2004 02:29									#28
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I think in this age of specialized relievers, HOLDS are a very important part of the game and do clearly indicate just how worthy a pitcher is to a team.

You have to keep TB b/c you screw doubles hitters otherwise, and you have to keep HR's b/c lets be honest, despite the rise in them, they still are the "most exciting" statistic and action of the game...

add more pitching stats the game revolves around pitching anyways hahah

	10-01-2004 02:30									#29
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quote: I think in this age of specialized relievers, HOLDS are a very important part of the game and do clearly indicate just how worthy a pitcher is to a team.

But you have to admit... it's kind of a bullshit stat (then again, so are saves) .

	10-01-2004 02:58									#30
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: 2 K's to 4 BB's is a ratio of 3.00 and 9 K's with 0 BB's isn't zero (or were you saying the computer read 9 k's and 0 bb's as 0.00?). Are you sure this happened? I kept an eye on these kinds of stats and never saw an error. But maybe you're right...

hmm. little queasy there with the first math part. what im saying is that the computer read 9 Ks and 0 bbs as infinity and/or zero and then didnt include that when it added to the rest.