09-01-2004 12:53									#1
	Which Unique Units are in need of boosting? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I think this will make a good poll because Jesse listens to us about balance issues, and if enough people ask for something, he fixes it.

Because polls are limited to 24 options, I left out 7 vanilla and PTW UUs that have proven themselves to be useful in a variety of situations and clearly do not need boosting. The ones that I left out were:

Hoplite
Mounted Warrior
Immortal
Sipahi
Berzerk
Legionaire
Samurai

All of these UUs are excellent already, and would be way too overpowering if given more advantages.

I allowed for multiple choice, but only vote for the few UUs you think really need it.

	09-01-2004 13:07									#2
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BTW, also remember that Cossacks have blitz now.


I say that only the 3 Man Chariot and Chasqui Scout are in need of a boost. The 3 Man Chariot is like a War Chariot, but you pay ten shields more for an extra defense point. Defending is useless, though, because who would defend with a 30 sheild unit with only 2 defense? That would be like using swordsmen to defend cities. The Incas don't start with the Chasqui Scout, and it has a high cost. These two factors turn a UU that could have been good into a very poor one.

	09-01-2004 13:58									#3
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The chasqui scout does really need a boost. Maybe they could lower the shield cost to that of a normal scout take away its attack and defence abilities but still allow it to pillage, also make pillaging not end its turn. Eg it can start its turn 1 square away from what it wants to pillage run in pillage then run off in the same turn, allowing it to pillage next to cities without the defenders coming out and killing it next turn. i think this would make the unit very useful but not overpowerd as a few warriors near things you want to protect should be adequate defence.
oh also because it now has no attack or def it cant steal workers and the inca can start with it, enjoying its movement bonus over hills and mountains.

	09-01-2004 15:05									#4
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Chasqui Scouts are not good and really need a fundamental rethink.

I also voted Hwacha because I think it should have better stats than a cannon (I give them a ROF of 2 in my games).

Not sure about the 3 man chariot. A defence 2 fast unit can be used in enemy territory without having to be slowed down by defending spearmen accompanying it so it isn't entirely a useless benefit.

Edited for clarity

Last edited by CerberusIV on 09-01-2004 at 17:36

	09-01-2004 15:19									#5
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The Jag now costing 50% more than it did before is wrong. At 15 shields it is now just 5 shields cheaper than the Zulu Impi and is still only a 1/1 unit.

My main problem is the Ha'Wacha. A bombard unit that fires rockets. Why on earth does it come with Mettallergy? It doesn't even use metal (if it did, then it still wouldn't be more complicated than just iron fragments)! It should come with Gunpowder (but still require saltpeter).

	09-01-2004 17:26									#6
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quote: Originally posted by me My main problem is the Ha'Wacha. A bombard unit that fires rockets. Why on earth does it come with Mettallergy? It doesn't even use metal (if it did, then it still wouldn't be more complicated than just iron fragments)! It should come with Gunpowder (but still require saltpeter).

Hmmm.... maybe it should require saltpeter and iron.....(but STILL COME WITH GUNPOWDER!!!!!)

	09-01-2004 17:43									#7
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I used to think that the Chasqui needed some fixing, but now I'm not at all convinced that it does - an AGR civ is somewhat land-dependent (looking for rivers) and ANY civ that has scouts for river-finding AND the agricultural trait has a very strong advantage. Toss in all the other expansionist bonuses (realizing the geo-strategic situation much earlier than others, that is to say - knowing who will have iron soon, who has it now, who may have ivory, etc, and all the usual freebies) and you've got a very solid civ in the Inca. Now throw in a dash of the Jaguar fear - keep some units near your cities, even in the early stages of exploration, because you never know if a swarm of Pink Tutus will show up....particularly since they can usually spot you first with that mountain-shuffle they have going on...

Drop by the ladder sometime, and you may suddenly find the Chasqui isn't so bad after all.

	09-01-2004 19:46									#8
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The Chasqui isn't THAT bad. I'd like to see it have a movement rate of one with ATAR. This would be a tiny boost. It's not bad as is though, especially when you consider the Incas' strong traits.

The Javelin Thrower, on the other hand, DOES need a boost. A 30 cost Bowman? No thanks, even if it does enslave. It's just way too expensive. I would suggest giving it an extra HP. That would balance this unit nicely.


Mo D

	09-01-2004 22:16									#9
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The Rider is already strong enough. The Javelin Thrower could need some tweaking.

	09-01-2004 22:33									#10
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my votes went to Man O War and Conquistadores, both utterly useless. With this I mean that I wouldn't "boost" them, I would just take them out all together and change them with

- English : enhanced longbowman
- Spain : enhanced medieval infantry

	09-01-2004 22:36									#11
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On another note, I didn't know Cossaks now have blitz. If so, they are extremely overpowered. They were already the best UU in the game to my humble opinion, with blitz they are just too strong.

	10-01-2004 01:02									#12
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quote: Originally posted by MotownDennis The Javelin Thrower, on the other hand, DOES need a boost. A 30 cost Bowman? No thanks, even if it does enslave. It's just way too expensive. I would suggest giving it an extra HP. That would balance this unit nicely. Mo D

My sister just finished a game as the Maya with 27 barbarian workers, all acquired in the BC years. And this was on a tiny map.

	10-01-2004 01:14									#13
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Why are Dromons in there? Those are one of the most powerful UU's in the game.

oh, and no banana option = no good poll

	10-01-2004 03:46									#14
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I voted for Conquistadors and Chasqui Scouts (a nice couple, uh? )

Conquistadors are too weak, I think they must be almost the same stast as the Knight, but with a bitpoint penaly, dunno...

And for the Inca Scout, well, first at all, it's not a good UU for the Incas, but oh well.....

For it, I suggest to be 2/1/1 or 1/1/1 but with an extra hitpoint, and cost about 15-17 shields.

	11-01-2004 01:22									#15
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I think the Numedian Mercenary needs a change. It needs to be either like the Greek Hoplite or the Roman Legion..take your pick.

It's a defensive unit, the one extra attack is a waste. This is the ancient age equivelant of the French Muskeeter from PTW. The Musketeer was fixed but this unit wasn't.

Who is going to build a 30 shield unit with an attack of 2 and move of only 1 to attack cities or for offense? That is an unbelievable waste in the early ancient age.

If you say you are building them for defense then why the extra attack with the added cost?

I have always had a beef with this unit, they should have made it 1-3-1 20 shields like the Hoplite.

If they want to make it offensive then give it the Roman Legion Stats. 3-3-1 needs Iron.

Either change would be fine with me..but as it stands now the Numidian Merc is broke. Irks me because it is one of the coolest looking units int he game.

	11-01-2004 11:51									#16
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maybe they can make num merc 3-2-1 no iron 30 cost. Although getting a 3att unit much earlier could be a HUGE adv....

2-3-1 +10 cost isnt that bad. I just think of it as +1/ pikemen.

It is kinda nice to have extra unit to attack after you exhaust your stack of horsemen/swords/archer moves. You can use your num merc to finish off red bar spears if you dont have any more movement.

	11-01-2004 12:30									#17
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Why are Dromons in there? Those are one of the most powerful UU's in the game. oh, and no banana option = no good poll

I put all Conquests units in, just because we haven't played with them for long enough for any of them to be exempt from polling.

	11-01-2004 12:51									#18
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To date, I do not think ANY of the UUs need adjusting! A UU is part of the WHOLE civ, and should not be considered in isolation. "None of the above" was not given as a poll option.

(This has not prevented me from giving Legions "build road" and "build fortress" capabilities).

	11-01-2004 19:51									#19
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People really think that the Javelin Thrower needs boosting!!!???!!!

6 people picked that at the time of this posting.

I very suprised by that. I've read other threads about this unit being too powerful.

I voted for Carrack, although I was torn between that and the Conquistador. I limited myself to one vote.

	11-01-2004 20:40									#20
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i hate the new jagwh0res. friggin useless.

	11-01-2004 23:22									#21
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Jags, and possibly Chasquis.

Numidian Mercenaries are immensely cool. They cost more, yes, but they have an extra defense and offense point which means they can be used for barb hunting for promotions, and can also be used to attack while on the offensive. If you have 1/3 NMs that gives you a 33% boost in your possible offensive army. That's big.

And Javelin Throwers... powerful. 'Nuff said.

	12-01-2004 05:51									#22
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Just a Few Comments:

Chaqsui Scout: Don't lower its cost, increase its attack or movement. You do any of these things, they become more power than Jags. 2 Attack? That would be equal to letting Inca "Horse Rush" from the start of the game. Anyone nearby in an MP game would be dead. Also, If you take away att/def Inca can no longer get a UU Golden Age. I think this unit is fine the way it is.

3-man Chariot: This unit's cost is too high. 30 shields for a unit that can't travel on moutain or Jungle w/o roads is kinda pricey. 25 shields would be better.

Jag Warrior: This unit's cost was increased because MP games were turning into "Jag rush" contests. I would leave it the way it is.

Conquistador: Needs to be tweaked. either give it +1 HP or increase attack to 4 with slightly increased cost.

	12-01-2004 16:27									#23
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i dunno why people think the Numidian merc is bad, hell with the resource scarcity in conquests its prolly one of the best UU in the game. If you lose out in the iron sweepstakes (as is too often the case) the numidian merc is a god send, just mix with about 6 or so catapults and you have an unbeatable army. Im sure we have all killed spearmen or even pikemen using archers/spearmen/catapults in a desperate bid to get iron. After the war is won however and swordsmen become your new standard infantry the left over archers become obselete and must be disbanded or just sent to die versus superior units unless you want them leeching support gold all the way till longbowmen. With numidian mercs you can just disperse the army to garrison cities and use the new cities first few turns to build vital imporvments and make the high corruption town a productive city that much faster. also not having to fork out 30 gold per spearman when pikemen come along is always very nice.

	12-01-2004 18:11									#24
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A good thread to provoke some thought. The NM is very potent, and needs no changes. The Jav Thrower may seem weak, but with that enslave it is really awesome, you just need to use it with a little panache. I have always avoided the Aztecs (and Zulus) for their ultra-early GA like the plague, and continue to do so. The last time I played as England was in vanilla Civ (when they were quite useless), but the new abilites of C3C may well have turned that around. The Dromon are certainly pretty nice in certain situations, just not all that good of an all-round-use unit.

My votes would go (tentatively) to the Conquistador and the Keshik for having little but movement bonuses in certain situations. The F-15 is still not worth anything in my book, but the Americans seem good enough that they don't need a good UU.

EDIT: Alright - who voted for the Panzer? Someone obviously hasn't built them before....

Note to all concerned (F-P ) - my judgements are based almost solely on SP games.

	12-01-2004 18:15									#25
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Yeah, I was one of the "Numids cost too much" people in PTW. This unit DID get an indirect boost in C3C, however, with the new resource scarcity, as pointed out by the above poster. Just played a game with Carthage recently and literally wiped up the competition. Numids are just fine, thank you very much.

As far as Jav Throwers, I know that they are powerful barb worker harvesting machines. Heh. I guess I want my UU to actually be useful in defeating my enemies. The Jav Thrower is NOT that. I might be more interested in a "barb worker harvesting machine" if I had a civ that wasn't already industrious.


Mo D

	13-01-2004 07:59									#26
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Before Conquests, there were about 9 UU's that I thought needed boosting. Thankfully, they've fixed a lot of the weak ones. Now, it's down to these three:

1) Conquistador: 70 shields for a 3/2/2 unit seems...off to me, even with "treats all as road". I think it need a tweak.

2) 3-Man Chariot: 30 shields + a special resource (horses) for a 2/2/2 unit that can't enter unroaded mountains, jungles, and swamps seems a little too much. The Celts get a 3/2/2 unit for 40 shield (just 10 shields more) + a special resource (iron, in this case), and that unit has no move restrictions. Maybe the 3-man Chariot could cost ~27 shields.

3) Musketeer: No longer useless, but still overpriced (along with the musketmen...). Should cost just 50 shields.

	13-01-2004 09:49									#27
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quote: Originally posted by CiverDan Just a Few Comments: Chaqsui Scout: Don't lower its cost, increase its attack or movement. You do any of these things, they become more power than Jags. 2 Attack? That would be equal to letting Inca "Horse Rush" from the start of the game. Anyone nearby in an MP game would be dead. Also, If you take away att/def Inca can no longer get a UU Golden Age. I think this unit is fine the way it is.

If you think on it it's hard to get GA from a 1/1 unit,

I agree with you where you say "horseman inca rush", so, I think just giving to them +1 hitpoint must be enough.

	13-01-2004 10:07									#28
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Chasqui Scout.

	13-01-2004 16:02									#29
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Chasqui should be 1.1.1 ATOR

Last edited by geniemalin on 13-01-2004 at 16:10

	13-01-2004 22:33									#30
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ATAR is too fast for a unit that early.

Try it in the editor, and you will be getting most of the huts before the AI, or other players in MP, has a chance. I have made a large number of tests, both with and against the ATAR Chasqui Scout. I also tried it in combination with A and/or D = 0.

I have played with it at its current stats, and even with its 20 shield cost, I am able to get as many huts as I could with a regular Scout. I don't have to build as many because they do have both an Attack and Defense.

I would like to see the cost reduced some, and the ability for them to build regular Scouts.

Edited for spelling.

Last edited by kring on 13-01-2004 at 23:56