10-01-2004 02:06									#1
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Is this ever really a good idea?

I've been a big player in the game before and signed a few mutual protection deals.

Here's my take:

When you're the big dog, and sign them (at no cost or little cost) to basically secure your borders and make sureyou don't have to fight someone, the smaller civs, heck, any of your partners tend to declare war on other folks and drag you into a fight you want to avoid.

When you're little, you basically are paying protection money, which the AI will break if it feels the need or desire/

	10-01-2004 02:09									#2
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I would tend to agree with you. In almost all of my games that last into the mid-Industrial age, MPP fueled world war inevitably occurs. I try to stay out of MPPs to avoid getting sucked into wars and world wars I don't want.

	10-01-2004 03:20									#3
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I find them to be useful only if I have a rival that could potentially do serious damage to my empire and need help. In other words, only if I can't stand alone or if a gang of AI's are banding together. Although I have seen some games where two major MPPs never fought each other but did get into wars with unaligned nations.

	10-01-2004 04:21									#4
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just like the real world, were the US tried to stay out of any "collective security" pacts after World War 1. I would try to do the same in the game.

There is no real point in MPP unless you are a warmongerer and YOU want to drag others into a war with you. If you want to stay peaceful, stay out of a MPP.

When your are in a MPP, the AI adds both of your "strength" values together, and makes decisions from that. Either by demanding stuff from third party nations or by going on territoral grabs.

	10-01-2004 04:51									#5
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When I am about to go to war with a major AI civ that is adjacent to me I'll sign a MPP with whatever civ that lies along that civs opposite border...that way my victim will have to split its forces and I won't get hit with all of them...this is a standard tactic I use and it works wonders...although the AI civ that signed the MPP with me may not think so.

	11-01-2004 04:57									#6
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Just take a look at WWI, and you'll see why I stay out of MPPs.

	11-01-2004 05:01									#7
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Well, if we're three big ones trying to dominate the world and one of them is pissed at me and/or share a long border with, it's nice to be able to get an alliance with the third party that will make a war with me costly. It's also, obviously a great thing for the AIs as the person that plays the game just can't take the AIs out one by one quite as easily.

	11-01-2004 11:05									#8
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Don't use it anymore. MPP has become synonymous with "get dragged into a war you don't want" to me.

	11-01-2004 17:38									#9
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Does MPP's have deterrent effect? This hasn't been too clear. If a nation would declare war on me, based on my/their military, does an MPP with equally big neigbourring nation cause them to... "think twice"?

	11-01-2004 20:13									#10
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yes, when the agressor AI thinks about going to war with you, it takes your "power" score & your Ally's "power" score and adds them up.

However, your Ally will do the same. He will add your "power' score to his and make decisions from that - and those decisions will most likely lead to a war you don't want.

	11-01-2004 21:47									#11
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mPP are great whenever you want to start a war.....

	12-01-2004 01:28									#12
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I like them because they will often get everyone into a nice war. With any luck they can keep duking it out well after I've pulled out.

	12-01-2004 04:36									#13
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Not a big user of them.

	12-01-2004 04:39									#14
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Almost never, unless I am the mack daddy killer civ and have the capability to war with everyone else all at once... then I screw around with Machiavellian stuff.

	12-01-2004 05:14									#15
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Yes, these are only useful if you're in a Machiavellian mood. Signing a MPP with someone for no particular reason, or purely for a bargaining tool, is asking for trouble.

The one time you need to make MPPs is when your rival is doing so and you believe war is likely. In my game, the dastardly Zulus recently declared war on me, and before I knew where I was everyone else had, too, because they were all in a ghastly huge network of alliances. Annoying not so much for the military threat (I am invincible on my island stronghold) as the fact that all my nice Luxury deals fall though instantly, and the finances of the entire globe cease to flow into my capacious coffers. In cases like this you need to keep an eye on how other alliances are shaping up and, if necessary, sign up some people to your side to even it out. One nice trick is to sign up the *same* people whom your rival does, which might at least weaken his coalition when war breaks out. I'm not entirely sure what happens in such a case. I believe that if there is a civilisation which has a MPP with two powers who subsequently go to war with each other, it will fight on the side of whichever *gets attacked* first, but I could be wrong. Any info on this?

	12-01-2004 05:33									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Plotinus I believe that if there is a civilisation which has a MPP with two powers who subsequently go to war with each other, it will fight on the side of whichever *gets attacked* first, but I could be wrong. Any info on this?

I think it's "gets attacked in their own territory." So attacking an enemy in YOUR territory, or someplace neutral, doesn;t count. And, btw, it includes bombardment.

	12-01-2004 05:35									#17
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Yes youre right but only when you attack them inside their territory will the third party declare on you.

One thing would be to have a choice whether to accept the call to arms when an MPP gets activated.

	12-01-2004 11:54									#18
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This is the type of information that should have been documented by Firaxis. It could have been in the strat guide so they would not have to make a larger manual, but it should hae been available.

There is a ton of this type of stuff in the game, that we have to stumble across.

Last edited by vmxa1 on 12-01-2004 at 23:20

	12-01-2004 21:48									#19
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when i go to war i just drag the rest of the world trough alliances with me a tech here some gold there or a resource damn the AI i so eaget to fight. Of course i had the problem when egypt betrayed me twice in one turn, first china the warmonger broke my alliance with egypt by bribing them to peace. Since i had a trade going in with the alliance in the same deal, I could talk to egypt imediatly and draged to war again when we left the table the ai resumed its turns and it was egypt that signed peace with china :| that's twice in one turn LOL of course i dragged them again but china is about to kill me as all my allies(23 in total) are in wars between them lol and fight each other while china will soon reach the main part of my empire where there are no troops already as everyone went to the border cities to fight but i have 35 infantry left and 38 cossakcs, killed the cinese cavalry but the map i play rubber is scarce only in east asia i was importing but no i can;t build infantry and the cosacks proove usless against the infantry so unless i betray the world by signing peace i will be killed. Did anyone betrayed 23 countries in the same time? too bad china is bent to kill me as she wants no negotiations :9

	13-01-2004 01:09									#20
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quote: Originally posted by ChrisiusMaximus Yes youre right but only when you attack them inside their territory will the third party declare on you. One thing would be to have a choice whether to accept the call to arms when an MPP gets activated.

It also has to deal with troop positions at the end of a turn. If your troops are even within someone elses border and they have an MPP, that will triger it.

The only way not to trigger an MPP is to just attack enemy units w/in YOUR OWN territory. As soon as you try to press an offensive advantage and 'cross the line', you will trigger the MPP.

MPP's suck if you want to avoid war because the AI's will always declare war on one another and somehow drag you into it. If however, your goal is to War w/ everyone, then MPP's come highly recommended.

Steven

	13-01-2004 02:40									#21
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I never enter an MPP when I am weak because of the unwanted war syndrome.

If I am 2 or 3 on the power list however and I want to knock down 1 a notch then I try to get the other ai civs to MPP or MA with me to gangbang 1. MPP is a great offensive tool if used properly. To use an MPP with the hope of defense, in the Civ3 game world, is folly because the very thing you want to avoid gets thrust upon you forcibly. I'd rather bribe like a coward the bullies to buy time to fight them on equal terms.

	13-01-2004 05:44									#22
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 This is the type of information that should have been documented by Firaxis. It could have been in the strat guide so they would not have to make a larger manual, but it should hae been available. There is a ton of this type of stuff in the game, that we have to stumble across.

That's funny... when I wrote my response I was gonna go ahead and add just the same thing... how people learn to play this game without finding the various websites is beyond me.