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Moti
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Hello, my name is Moti, it's great to visit your forum. The following is a sample of a brilliant critique of the dominant policies, theories and presuppositions of modern science and scientists by the world-famous saint, cultural ambassador, scholar and social reformer His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.
I'm posting it for general discussion.
Darwinism Extinct
Dr. Singh. Darwin has said that some species become extinct in the struggle for survival. Those which are capable of surviving will survive, but those which are not will become extinct. So he says survival and extinction go side by side.
Srila Prabhupada. Nothing is extinct. The monkey is not extinct. Darwin's immediate forefather, the monkey, is still existing.
Karandhara. Darwin said there must be a natural selection. But selection means choice. So who is choosing?
Srila Prabhupada. That must be a person. Who is allowing someone to survive and someone to be killed? There must be some authority with discretion to give such an order. That is our first proposition. Who that authority is, is explained in Bhagavad-gita. Krsna says, mayadhyaksena prakrtih: "Nature is working under My supervision." (Bg. 9.10)
Dr. Singh. Darwin also says that the different species were not created simultaneously, but evolved gradually.
Srila Prabhupada. Then what is his explanation for how the process of evolution began?
Karandhara. Modern proponents of Darwinism say that the first living organism was created chemically.
Srila Prabhupada. And I say to them, "If life originated from chemicals, and if your science is so advanced, then why can't you create life biochemically in your laboratories?"
In the Future
Karandhara. They say they will create life in the future.
Srila Prabhupada. What future? When this crucial point is raised, they reply, "We shall do it in the future." Why in the future? That is nonsense. "Trust no future, however pleasant." If they are so advanced, they must demonstrate now how life can be created from chemicals. Otherwise what is the meaning of their advancement? They are talking nonsense.
Karandhara. They say that they are right on the verge of creating life.
Srila Prabhupada. That's only a different way of saying the same thing: "In the future." The scientists must admit that they still do not know the origin of life. Their claim that they will soon prove a chemical origin of life is something like paying someone with a postdated check. Suppose I give you a postdated check for ten thousand dollars but I actually have no money. What is the value of that check? Scientists are claiming that their science is wonderful, but when a practical example is wanted, they say they will provide it in the future. Suppose I say that I possess millions of dollars, and when you ask me for some money I say, "Yes, I will now give you a big postdated check. Is that all right?" If you are intelligent, you will reply, "At present give me at least five dollars in cash so I can see something tangible." Similarly, the scientists cannot produce even a single blade of grass in their laboratories, yet they are claiming that life is produced from chemicals. What is this nonsense? Is no one questioning this?
Karandhara. They say that life is produced by chemical laws.
Srila Prabhupada. As soon as there is a law, we must take into consideration that someone made the law. Despite all their so-called advancement, the scientists in their laboratories cannot produce even a blade of grass. What kind of scientists are they?
Dr. Singh. They say that in the ultimate analysis, everything came from matter. Living matter came from nonliving matter.
Srila Prabhupada. Then where is this living matter coming from now? Do the scientists say that life came from matter in the past but does not at the present? Where is the ant coming from now--from the dirt?
The Missing Link
Dr. Singh. in fact, there are several theories explaining how life originated from matter, how living matter came from the nonliving.
Srila Prabhupada. [casting Dr. Singh in the role of a materialistic scientist]. All right, scientist, why is life not coming from matter now? You rascal. Why isn't life coming from matter now? Actually such scientists are rascals. They childishly say that life came from matter, although they are not at all able to prove it. Our Krsna consciousness movement should expose all these rascals. They are only bluffing. Why don't they create life immediately? In the past, they say, life arose from matter; and they say that this will happen again in the future. They even say that they will create life from matter. What kind of theory is this? They have already commented that life began from matter. This refers to the past--"began." Then why do they now speak of the future? Is it not contradictory? They are expecting the past to occur in the future. This is childish nonsense.
Karandhara. They say that life arose from matter in the past and that they will create life this way in the future.
Srila Prabhupada. What is this nonsense? If they cannot prove that life arises from matter in the present, how do they know life arose this way in the past?
Dr. Singh. They are assuming...
Srila Prabhupada. Everyone can assume, but this is not science. Everyone can assume something. You can assume something, I can assume something. But there must be proof. We can prove that life arises from life. For example, a father begets a child. The father is living, and the child is living. But where is their proof that a father can be a dead stone? Where is their proof? We can easily prove that life begins from life. And the original life is Krsna. That also can be proven. But what evidence exists that a child is born of stone? They cannot actually prove that life comes from matter. They are leaving that aside for the future. [Laughter.]
Karandhara. The scientists say that they can now formulate acids, amino acids, that are almost like one-celled living organisms. They say that because these acids so closely resemble living beings, there must be just one missing link needed before they can create life.
Srila Prabhupada. Nonsense! Missing link. I'll challenge them to their face! [Laughter.] They are missing this challenge. The missing link is this challenge to their face.
[Srila Prabhupada is accompanied by Dr. Singh, Karandhara dasa adhikari, Brahmananda Svami and other students. Recorded on April 19, 1973, in Cheviot Hills Park, Los Angeles]
* THE HARE KRISHNA SAINT TORTURED AND POISONED TO DEATH BY HIS JUDAS DISCIPLES
http://members.lycos.co.uk/prabhupa...sp_poisoned.htm
* MATERIALISTIC SCIENTISTS EXPOSED BY THE HARE KRISHNA SAINT
http://members.lycos.co.uk/spexpose/
* WHAT IS KRISHNA CONCIOUSNESS?
http://members.lycos.co.uk/prabhupa..._kc/what_kc.htm
* PRABHUPADA Your ever well wisher
http://members.lycos.co.uk/prabhupada1/
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Moti
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Therefore we refuse to accept any controller of this universe, because as soon as we accept some controller, then we'll have to account for our sinful activities. As soon as there is a government, then we shall be responsible for our unlawful activities. But our position is that we want to continue our sinful activities. As such it is very good to deny any controller. That is the basic principle of godlessness. Why these rascals, they deny there is no God, God is dead? Because they want to continue their rascaldom without any restriction. That is the basic principle, they deny. But do you mean to say that denying the God, the God will die or God will..., there will be no God? No. There is a nice Bengali proverb, sakuni svape garu more na. Sakuni means the vulture. The vulture wants some dead carcass of animal, a cow especially. So for days together they do not get it, so it is cursing some cow, "You die." So does it mean that by his cursing the cow will die? Similarly, these vultures, sakuni, they want to see God is dead. At least, they take pleasure, "Oh, now God is dead. I can do anything nonsense I like." This is going on. Sakuni is cursing, the vulture is cursing the cow.
So this sort of knowledge will not do. One must know that there is a controller. That is the beginning of knowledge. Why should you deny? In every field of activity we find some controller. How can I deny that there is no controller of this creation?
[Srila Prabhupada Lecture from Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.9.12, Montreal, August 18, 1968]
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Moti
Darwin has said that some species become extinct in the struggle for survival. Those which are capable of surviving will survive, but those which are not will become extinct. So he says survival and extinction go side by side.
Srila Prabhupada. Nothing is extinct. The monkey is not extinct. Darwin's immediate forefather, the monkey, is still existing. |
First - The monkey isn't Darwin's forefather. Monkey's and men share a common ancestor, which is extinct.
Second - Evolution never says a species and its progenitor can't exist side-by-side for some time. It would be nonsensical to say otherwise.
Third - Nothing is extinct? Uh, try about 99% of the species that have ever lived are extinct. Unless you have a Dodo or trilobyte we don't know about.
quote:
Karandhara. Darwin said there must be a natural selection. But selection means choice. So who is choosing?. |
Oh lord. "Natural selection" is a term that applies to natural environments being more condusive to certain evolutionary traits than other. It has nothing to do with any conscious "chooser."
quote:
Dr. Singh. Darwin also says that the different species were not created simultaneously, but evolved gradually.
Srila Prabhupada. Then what is his explanation for how the process of evolution began?. |
How evolution began doesn't matter in terms of showing that evolution itself indeed occurs. Abiogenesis is not really a part of evolutionary theory. But there are many theories of how life originated.
quote:
Modern proponents of Darwinism say that the first living organism was created chemically.
Srila Prabhupada. And I say to them, "If life originated from chemicals, and if your science is so advanced, then why can't you create life biochemically in your laboratories?". |
Now this is just dumb. "We don't know how to do it now, so it must be impossible!"
Well, it has been done. In 1952, the Miller-Ulrey experiment showed that organic compounds developed spontaneously in a very basic mixture of Nitrogen, Hydrogen, and other inorganic material. All that was needed was electricity. Since then, the same results have been achieved using other chemical solutions more accurate for the primordial earth.
The rest doesn't interest me, but at least we dealt with this nonsense.  Welcome.
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Moti
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Third - Nothing is extinct? Uh, try about 99% of the species that have ever lived are extinct. Unless you have a Dodo or trilobyte we don't know about.
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The following answers your extint argument:
Devotee: But Darwin says there are many species, like dinosaurs, that are seen to be extinct.
Srila Prabhupada: What has he seen? He is not so powerful that he can see everywhere or everything. His power to see is limited, and by that limited power he cannot conclude that one species is extinct. That is not possible. No scientist will accept that. After all, all the senses by which you gather knowledge are limited, so how can you say this is finished or that is extinct? You cannot see. You cannot search out. The earth's circumference is twenty-five thousand miles; have you searched through all the layers of rock and soil over the whole earth? Have you excavated all those places?
Devotee: No.
Srila Prabhupada: Therefore our first charge against Darwin is this: He says there were no human beings millions of years ago. That is not a fact. We now see human beings existing along with all other species, and it should be concluded that this situation always existed. Human life has always been there. Darwin cannot say there was no human life.
Devotee: We don't see any dinosaurs existing.
Srila Prabhupada: You do not see because you have no power to see. Your senses are very limited, so what you see or don't see cannot be authoritative. So many people--the majority of people--say, "I don't see God." Shall we accept, then, that there is no God? Are we crazy for being devotees of God?
Devotee: No, but dinosaurs--
Srila Prabhupada: But simply by dinosaurs being missing you cannot make your case. What about all the other species?
Devotee: Many, many others are also extinct.
Srila Prabhupada: Say I accept that many are extinct--because the evolutionary process means that as an earlier species gradually changes into a later species, the earlier vanishes, becomes extinct. But we see that many monkeys are still here. Man evolved from the simians, but simians have not disappeared. Monkeys are here, and men are here.
Devotee: But still I'm not convinced. If we make geological investigations all over the world, not just here and there, but in many parts of the world, and in every case we find the same thing--
Srila Prabhupada: But I say you have not studied all over the world. Has Darwin studied all the continents on this planet? Has he gone down into the depths of the seas and there excavated all the layers of the earth? No. So his knowledge is imperfect. This is the relative world, and here everyone speaks with relative knowledge. Therefore we should accept knowledge from a person who is not within this relativity.
Devotee: Actually, Darwin hit upon his theory because of what he observed on his voyage in 1835 to the Galapagos Islands, off the coast of South America. He found there species that exist nowhere else.
Srila Prabhupada: That means he has not seen all the species. He has not traveled all over the universe. He has seen one island, but he has not seen the whole creation. So how can he determine what species exist and don't exist? He has studied one part of this earth, but there are many millions of planets. He has not seen all of them; he has not excavated the depths of all the planets. So how can he conclude, "This is nature"? He has not seen everything, nor is it possible for any human being to see everything.
Devotee: Let's just confine ourselves to this planet.
Srila Prabhupada: No, why should we? Nature is not only on this planet.
Devotee: Because you said that on this planet there were complex forms of living beings millions and millions of years ago.
Srila Prabhupada: We are not talking about this planet, but about anywhere. You are referring to nature. Nature is not limited or confined to this planet. You cannot say that. Nature, material nature, includes millions of universes, and in each and every universe there are millions of planets. If you have studied only this planet, your knowledge is insufficient.
Devotee: But you said before that millions of years ago on this planet there were horses, elephants, civilized men--
Srila Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Devotee: But from hundreds of different sources there is no evidence.
Srila Prabhupada: I say they are existing now--men, horses, snakes, insects, trees. So why not millions of years ago?
Devotee: Because there is no evidence.
Srila Prabhupada: That doesn't mean... ! You limit your study to one planet. That is not full knowledge.
Devotee: I just want to find out for the time being about--
Srila Prabhupada: Why the time being? If you are not perfect in your knowledge, then why should I accept your theory? That is my point.
Devotee: Well, if you claim that millions of years ago there were complex forms of life on this planet--
Srila Prabhupada: Whether on this planet or on another planet, that is not the point. The point is that all species exist and keep on existing by the arrangement of nature. We learn from the Vedic texts that there are 8,400,000 species established. They may be in your neighborhood or they may be in my neighborhood--the number and types are fixed. But if you simply study your neighborhood, it is not perfect knowledge. Evolution we admit. But your evolutionary theory is not perfect. Our theory of evolution is perfect. From the Vedas we know that there are 8,400,000 forms of bodies provided by nature, but the soul is the same in all, in spite of the different types of body. There is no change in the soul, and therefore the Bhagavad-gita (5.18) says that one who is wise, a pandita, does not see the species or the class; he sees oneness, equality. Panditah sama-darsinah. One who sees to the bottom sees the soul, and he does not find there any difference between all these species.
Devotee: So Darwin and other material scientists who have no information about the soul--
Srila Prabhupada: They're missing the whole point.
Devotee: They say that all living things tend to evolve from lower to higher. In the history of the earth--
Srila Prabhupada: That may be accepted. For example, in an apartment building there are different kinds of apartments: first-class apartments, second-class apartments, third-class apartments. According to your desire and qualification, as you are fit to pay the rent, you are allowed to move up to the better apartments. But the different apartments are already there. They are not evolving. The residents are evolving by moving to new apartments as they desire.
Devotee: As they desire.
Srila Prabhupada: Yes. According to our mentality at the time of death, we get another "apartment," another body. But the "apartment" is already there, not that I'm creating the "apartment."
And the classes of "apartments" are fixed at 8,400,000. Just like the hotel-keeper: he has experience of his customers coming and wanting different kinds of facilities. So he has made all sorts of accommodations to oblige all kinds of customers. Similarly, this is God's creation. He knows how far a living entity can think, so He has made all these different species accordingly. When God thinks, "Come on, come here," nature obliges. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani (Bhagavad-gita 3.27): Nature is offering facility. God, Krsna, is sitting in the heart of the living entity as Paramatma, and He knows, "He wants this." So the Lord orders nature, "Give him this apartment," and nature obliges: "Yes, come on; here is your apartment." This is the real explanation.
Devotee: I understand and accept that. But I'm still puzzled as to why there is no geological evidence that in former times on this planet there were more complex forms.
Srila Prabhupada: Why are you taking geological evidence as final? Is it final? Science is progressing. You cannot say it is final.
Devotee: But I have excavated all parts of the world, and every time--
Srila Prabhupada: No. You have not excavated all parts of the world.
Devotee: Well, on seven continents.
Srila Prabhupada: Seven continents is not the whole world. You say you have excavated the whole world, but we say no, not even an insignificant portion. So your knowledge is limited. Dr. Frog has examined his three-foot-wide well, and now he claims to know the ocean.
Experimental knowledge is always imperfect, because one experiments with imperfect senses. Therefore, scientific knowledge must be imperfect. Our source of knowledge is different. We do not depend on experimental knowledge.
Now you see no dinosaurs, nor have I seen all the 8,400,000 different forms of life. But my source of knowledge is different. You are an experimenter with imperfect senses. I have taken knowledge from the perfect person, who has seen everything, who knows everything. Therefore, my knowledge is perfect.
Say, for example, that I receive knowledge from my mother: "Here is your father." But you are trying to search out your father on your own. You don't go to your mother and ask; you just search and search. Therefore, no matter how much you search, your knowledge will always remain imperfect.
Devotee: And your knowledge says that millions of years ago there were higher forms of life on this planet.
Srila Prabhupada: Oh, yes, because our Vedic information is that the first created being is the most intelligent, the most intellectual person within the universe--Lord Brahma, the cosmic engineer. So how can we accept your theory that intellect develops by evolution? We have received our Vedic knowledge from Brahma, who is so perfect.
Dr. Frog has studied his three-foot well, his little reservoir of water. The Atlantic Ocean is also a reservoir of water, but there is a vast difference. Dr. Frog cannot inform us about the Atlantic Ocean. But we take knowledge from the one who has made the Atlantic Ocean. So our knowledge is perfect.
Devotee: But wouldn't there be evidence in the earth, some remains?
Srila Prabhupada: Our evidence is intelligence, not stones and bones. Our evidence is intelligence. We get Vedic information by disciplic succession from the most intelligent. It is coming down by sruti, hearing. Vyasadeva heard from Narada, Narada heard from Brahma--millions and millions of years ago. Millions and millions of our years pass, and it is not even one day for Brahma. So millions and billions and trillions of years are not very astonishing to us, for that is not even one day of Brahma. But Brahma was born of Krsna, and intelligent philosophy has been existing in our universe from the date of Brahma's birth. Brahma was first educated by God, and His knowledge has been passed down to us in the Vedic literature. So we get such intelligent information in the Vedas.
But those so-called scientists and philosophers who do not follow this system of descending knowledge, who do not accept knowledge thus received from higher authorities--they can't have any perfect knowledge, no matter what research work they carry out with their blunt senses. So whatever they say, we take it as imperfect.
Our method is different from theirs. They are searching after dead bones, and we are searching after living brains. This point should be stressed. They are dealing with dead bones, and we are dealing with living brains. So which should be considered better?
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Moti
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
How evolution began doesn't matter in terms of showing that evolution itself indeed occurs. Abiogenesis is not really a part of evolutionary theory. But there are many theories of how life originated.
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Of course it matters:
Prabhupada: Darwin's theory. Wherefrom he begins?
Jayatirtha: He begins in the ocean. He says that some fish-type animal climbed out of the ocean and began to breathe the air.
Prabhupada: Then wherefrom the ocean came?
Devotee: He doesn't say.
Sri Govinda: In the beginning on the planet there was great turbulence and the oceans were stirring, and then there was some lightning charge.
Prabhupada: Wherefrom the lightning came? And wherefrom the ocean came? Where his philosophy is? It is a speculation.
Sri Govinda: It all began from a primeval explosion.
Prabhupada: Then same question, wherefrom the explosion came?
Satsvarupa: They say that explosion began at time zero.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Satsvarupa: Time zero. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Time zero?
Satsvarupa: Time began then, at time zero. And they say that if you ask the question, "What was before that?" that's not a logical, sensible question.
Prabhupada: Why?
Satsvarupa: They say it's a question that should not even be asked.
Prabhupada: No, then you are rascal. You are beginning from zero. How you can begin from zero?
Devotee: Everything comes from nothing then.
Prabhupada: So that is not philosophy.
Sri Govinda: They say it all originates from a giant mass of primordial matter.
Prabhupada: Then same comes..., that "Wherefrom the matter comes?"
Harikesa: They say it's an accident.
Prabhupada: That is another nonsense, another rascaldom. Where is the accident? Nothing is accident, everything is cause and effect. We say that in the beginning there was God or word of God. In Bible they say?
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupada: So God was there and God's word was there. That is the beginning, our beginning. Janmady asya yatah. Aham evasam agre. And Bhagavad-gita, aham sarvasya prabhavah mattah sarvam pravartate. This is our philosophy, "Everything begins from God." Now you can say, "Wherefrom God came?" But that is God. God existing, He is not caused by any other cause, He is the original cause. Anadir adih: "He has no beginning, but He is the beginning of everything." This is conception of God. Anadir adir govindah. That adi is Govinda, person, Krsna. Krsna says, aham adir hi devanam. We find from the history. Brahma is the beginning. He is deva, one of the demigods. Krsna says, aham adir hi devanam. So He is the cause of Brahma also. So this is our philosophy. We don't begin from zero or accident. This is not our philosophy.
Harikesa: Darwin never tried to understand the...
Prabhupada: No, no, he admitted that he speculated. He is not a philosopher, he is a speculator. He has admitted that "It is my speculation. I think like this."
Harikesa: He started his speculation from the creation of life. He didn't...
Prabhupada: Anywhere, speculation is not science nor philosophy. We don't admit. No hypothesis.
Satsvarupa: They call the Vedas speculation. They say the Upanisads are speculation.
Prabhupada: No, no, no, not speculation. Isopanisad, isavasyam idam sarvam, everything beginning from isa, the supreme controller... Where is speculation?
Tamala Krsna: They say that the Vedas are written by man so they are imperfect.
Prabhupada: So you are less than a dog. It is written by man. That's all right. But you are less than a dog. You have no reason, no right. What is your philosophy? What is the value of your philosophy? It is speculation. We don't say, "It is written by man." Apauruseya. They may say whatever they..., we don't say. If somebody says, "Your father name is that," and I know my father's name. "What you are? You are not authority to say what is my father's name. I know very well." So it is their suggestion like that, "Your father's name is this." We don't say that "My father name is..." Is that very good suggestion? You don't know anything of my family. How you say that "Your father name is this?" Is it not another rascaldom? You do not know anything about my family, and you say that "Your father's name is this." What is this logic? You cannot say what is my father's name. You do not know about my family.
Harikesa: Darwin's whole theory rests on the fact, the speculation, that he can show bones. They take these bones and these evidences, archeological...
Prabhupada: Anyway, it is not possible that he has seen all the bones. That is not possible. So taking it that he has studied by seeing the bones, but I can say very easily that it is not possible for a person like you to see all the bones. That is my challenge. How you can say that you have seen all the bones? You say, "Millions and millions of years ago..." You live for fifty years. How you have seen all the bones? That is imperfect. You are a limited person. How it is possible that you have seen all the bones? What is the answer?
Satsvarupa: They say they haven't found all the bones, but what they've found is conclusive evidence.
Prabhupada: But then you cannot do that. If you have seen all the bones, then you can conclude. You say, "Some of the missing." So how it is fact? You did not see it.
Satsvarupa: Just this year they found a skull that was millions of years older than any human skull they found before.
Prabhupada: That's all right. But still, you cannot say that you have seen all the skulls. That is not possible.
Devotee: They will say they have not even found one skull from the Vedic culture.
Prabhupada: Oh. No, Vedic culture do not keep skull, they burn it. Therefore there is no opportunity for you to see the Vedic culture. Then you become defective. Because you cannot see the skulls of Vedic culture. We burn it. So therefore your conclusion is defective.
Harikesa: So the only bones they find are the bones of the fifth, sixth, seventh-class men.
Prabhupada: Yes, of the monkey-class men. (laughter) That's all. Therefore you conclude that the man comes from monkey. That is the conclu... Human being, Vedic culture, they burn it. So they have no opportunity to see the human being skull. The monkeys, they do not burn. So he has seen only the monkey skull, and his conclusion is, "Man is from monkey."
Brahmananda: Actually they are simply interested in bones, but this is the activity of the dog. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes, he finds, (laughter) like that. So it is dog's philosophy. Hare Krsna.
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Moti
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quote:
Originally posted by yaroslav
When I found the first problem, I stoped reading the rest of thext.
Using this same argument I can say that there should have been nukes in all our history becuase I now see nukes and humans things existing along. |
First you have to stop using your frog in the well logic...
"The frog in the well" logic illustrates that a frog residing in the atmosphere and boundary of a well cannot imagine the length and breadth of the gigantic ocean. Such a frog, when informed of the gigantic length and breadth of the ocean, first of all does not believe that there is such an ocean, and if someone assures him that factually there is such a thing, the frog then begins to measure it by imagination by means of pumping its belly as far as possible, with the result that the tiny abdomen of the frog bursts and the poor frog dies without any experience of the actual ocean. Similarly, the material scientists also want to challenge the inconceivable potency of the Lord by measuring Him with their froglike brains and their scientific achievements, but at the end they simply die unsuccessfully, like the frog.
[Srila Prabhupada from Srimad Bhagavatam 2.5.10]
In the Srimad Bhagavatam [compiled 5,000 years ago] there are descriptions of Nukes:
TRANSLATION
The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: Know from Me that this is the act of the son of Drona. He has thrown the hymns of nuclear energy [brahmastra], and he does not know how to retract the glare. He has helplessly done this, being afraid of imminent death.
PURPORT
The brahmastra is similar to the modern nuclear weapon manipulated by atomic energy. The atomic energy works wholly on total combustibility, and so the brahmastra also acts. It creates an intolerable heat similar to atomic radiation, but the difference is that the atomic bomb is a gross type of nuclear weapon, whereas the brahmastra is a subtle type of weapon produced by chanting hymns. It is a different science, and in the days gone by such science was cultivated in the land of Bharata-varsa. The subtle science of chanting hymns is also material, but it has yet to be known by the modern material scientists. Subtle material science is not spiritual, but it has a direct relationship with the spiritual method, which is still subtler. A chanter of hymns knew how to apply the weapon as well as how to retract it. That was perfect knowledge. But the son of Dronacarya, who made use of this subtle science, did not know how to retract. He applied it, being afraid of his imminent death, and thus the practice was not only improper but also irreligious. As the son of a brahmana, he should not have made so many mistakes, and for such gross negligence of duty he was to be punished by the Lord Himself.
[Srila Prabhupada from Srimad Bhagavatam 1.7.27]
Carry on reading yaroslav your logic has been refuted.
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Moti
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Now this is just dumb. "We don't know how to do it now, so it must be impossible!"
Well, it has been done. In 1952, the Miller-Ulrey experiment showed that organic compounds developed spontaneously in a very basic mixture of Nitrogen, Hydrogen, and other inorganic material. All that was needed was electricity. Since then, the same results have been achieved using other chemical solutions more accurate for the primordial earth.
The rest doesn't interest me, but at least we dealt with this nonsense. Welcome. |
BLUFFING.....
Prabhupada: Do it. Again foolishness. These rascals... (laughs) Then, if you can create life, then where is the question of dead body? You create again. Give life again. If you are so competent that you can give life, combination, then this dead body is there. You bring chemicals and inject.
Pusta Krsna: The same chemicals are there, too. The same chemicals, living body, dead body--five minutes before, five after--is the same chemicals. But they can't explain why there is such a drastic difference.
Prabhupada: What is that same chemical?
Pusta Krsna: In the living body, two minutes before death and two minutes after...
Prabhupada: So what is that? Name that, what is that chemical. Then bring it.
Pusta Krsna: Let him try and make life. Not possible.
Prabhupada: If you know the chemical, then you bring it. Chemical is available. Why this is dead? What they will answer? What this chemical is wanting, that it is dead?
Brahmananda: Well, we may not know...
Prabhupada: Then, you rascal, why you are talking? You do not know. (laughter)
Brahmananda: But, then, neither do you know.
Prabhupada: Huh? No...
Brahmananda: You can say soul, but you don't...
Prabhupada: No. But you cannot answer my question; therefore you are more rascal than me. You cannot answer. Your... You are...
Harikesa: You have the position. He's in a position. He cannot answer.
Prabhupada: Yes. You say that chemical is missing. I say what is that chemical?
Pusta Krsna: No, but the chemical is not missing.
Prabhupada: Then?
Pusta Krsna: The same chemical is there. Two minutes before death and two minutes after death, the body chemistry has not changed so much.
Prabhupada: No. What is that missing that it is dead?
Pusta Krsna: They can't answer.
Prabhupada: Therefore they are fool. You cannot answer.
Pusta Krsna: Because it's not a question of chemical. Actually they don't know what life is.
Prabhupada: Therefore they are foolish. Therefore he has to take knowledge from Krsna: dehino 'smin yatha... "Within this body there is soul."
Brahmananda: You say there's a soul, but we've never seen a soul. It may be your imagination.
Prabhupada: You may not see. You have not seen your forefather. That does not mean... This is all bad argument. Why do you believe? Your eyes are so imperfect; still, you say, "I did not see. I want to see." What is the value of your eyes? You see the sun globe--a small disc. But is it so? Then how do you know that it is so big?
Pusta Krsna: By hearing.
Prabhupada: By hearing. That is important, not by seeing. Therefore sruti, Veda, is important, not your eyes.
Harikesa: When people die, though, there is usually some cause. Like they have a heart attack or they get hit by a car or some disease. So that death is caused by the disease...
Prabhupada: That is not the cause. That is the effect. You foolish, do not know. You are taking it, cause.
Harikesa: Well, when you get hit by a car, that's a cause.
Prabhupada: Just like one man becomes insolvent, loses everything. So he said that "I had no money. Therefore I become insolvent." But that is not the fact. He could not manage; therefore there was scarcity of money and he became failure. So that is effect. On account of his bad management, he came to a position that he could not pay to his creditor, and his business is failure. So that insolvency is not the cause. It is the effect.
Pusta Krsna: Bhisma was able to remain in his body even on a bed of arrows.
Prabhupada: So when you are going to die, these are the... On account of imminent death, these are the effects.
Harikesa: But that means that the body breaks down.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Harikesa: The body breaks down.
Prabhupada: At a certain period it will break.
Harikesa: So that is the cause, the body breaking down.
Prabhupada: Yes. So you say heart failure is the cause. No. The body is breaking; therefore heart failure.
Harikesa: So death means the body breaks.
Prabhupada: No, no. First of all your answer... You say the heart failure is the cause. The man is dying. I say that because the man is dying, the heart is failure. So heart failure is not the cause. It is the effect.
Harikesa: That's very difficult...
Pusta Krsna: Because his karma in that body is running out, he has to leave.
Brahmananda: But if I can get some machine that will make the heart keep on beating, then the man won't die.
Prabhupada: No. That you are failure. You have got so many machines. You go on, keeping the heart going on. That is not possible.
Harikesa: Finally they just pull out the plug. The doctor kicks the plug one day.
Prabhupada: (laughs) Yes.
Brahmananda: At the present moment, I was reading, there is one girl in America, New Jersey, teenage girl. And for some unknown reason she went to sleep one night, and in the morning she did not wake up. So they then rushed her to the hospital, and they have an artificial machine that is keeping her alive, and this has been going on for one month. All of her bodily functions are becoming more and more diminished, but still, by this machine, she is alive. Now this has gone on for one month. So now they don't know what to do with her. Should they keep her like this, just running on the machine, or should they stop the machine and then she will die? This is a big legal problem. They don't know what... If they stop the machine, they'll be accused of manslaughter.
Pusta Krsna: Some Catholic priest said that better to let her die, because this is God's way.
Prabhupada: Then he has to accept the God's way and give up the machine.
Pusta Krsna: But in a situation like that, isn't it more valuable to preserve human life because there's the chance...
Prabhupada: What is the use?
Pusta Krsna: There's a chance that somehow or another, they might be...
Prabhupada: Why should you take the chance? You are perplexed with overpopulation. And why you want to stay? One side, you are perplexed with overpopulation. Let him die.
Pusta Krsna: But they can use the argument that you're saying that human life is simply for Krsna consciousness or God consciousness.
Prabhupada: No, from his argument, why should you try to keep it? Let him die.
Cyavana: They are afraid of death. No one wants to die.
Pusta Krsna: They are afraid someone will take them off the machine, too.
Cyavana: We want to live as long as we can.
Prabhupada: Then you have to accept that your killing child, abortion, that is sinful.
Cyavana: It's easier for the mind to accept what is apparent to the senses. For example, to accept that I am this body is easier for my mind than to accept a philosophy which you say that we are not this body. That is very difficult for my mind to accept, whereas I can accept very immediately that I am this body.
Prabhupada: Because it is difficult, therefore you are a fool. That proves that you are a fool.
Cyavana: Why should I strive for something so difficult, such a philosophical understanding, when I can live very happily with this body?
Prabhupada: But because you do not want to die. You want happiness.
Cyavana: So I can enjoy this body.
Prabhupada: You cannot. That is the difficulty. You want, but you cannot. You want. That I know. But you cannot do it.
Harikesa: You never see happy people.
Prabhupada: That is their ignorance. They are accepting unhappiness as happiness.
Brahmananda: Well, in this world there has to be some unhappiness and there has to be some happiness.
Prabhupada: But we are trying to give you happiness only, no unhappiness.
Cyavana: But that's not possible.
Brahmananda: That's artificial.
Prabhupada: That you say, but we know.
Cyavana: We cannot see.
Prabhupada: You cannot see, but you will see if you be trained up. That is Krsna consciousness movement.
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Moti
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quote:
Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
Moti? What did Srila Prabhupada have to say about the following issues?
1- Finnish Evil?
2- Bukkake? |
I searched for bukkake on google and see where you are coming from [pardon the pun] anyway hear is your answer Lazzy:
RIVER OF SEMEN
TRANSLATION: If a foolish member of the twice-born classes [brahmana, ksatriya and vaisya] forces his wife to drink his semen out of a lusty desire to keep her under control, he is put after death into the hell known as Lalabhaksa. There he is thrown into a flowing river of semen, which he is forced to drink.
PURPORT: The practice of forcing one's wife to drink one's own semen is a black art practiced by extremely lusty persons. Those who practice this very abominable activity say that if a wife is forced to drink her husband's semen, she remains very faithful to him. Generally only low-class men engage in this black art, but if a man born in a higher class does so, after death he is put into the hell known as Lalabhaksa. There he is immersed in the river known as Sukra-nadi and forced to drink semen.
[Srila Prabhupada from Srimad Bhagavatam 5.26.26]
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Moti
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quote:
Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
Moti? What did Srila Prabhupada have to say about the following issues?
1- Finnish Evil?
2- Bukkake? |
Don't know much about the evil fin but this should cover it LAZ, me old mate:
Licking of the vagina civilization
Prabhupada: No, we... "It is voluntary. In our society we find so many brahmacaris [celibate students], so many grhasthas.[regulated householder] And if you cannot stop this itching sensation, all right, marry one girl and live peacefully like a gentle... What is this nonsense, every three weeks divorce? We are not so rascal. If we accept one girl as my wife, I take full responsibility. Because I require a girl or woman, so this woman, that one... We are not so rascal that at home I have got woman, I am searching after another woman, another naked woman. We are not so madman. The sex pleasure is there at home, and I am seeking after sex pleasure in here, here, in the club, in the... What is that? Is that vagina is different? You are so fool. You require vagina; take one vagina. Be satisfied. And lick it. Why you are going here and there, here and there, here and there? Even old man is going to the nightclub to lick another vagina. Is that civilization? You are proud of your civilization." Tell them like that. "Licking of the vagina, different, obnoxious smell. You are less than the dog. The dog likes to smell the vagina. You are like that. What is business of going another vagina? You require vagina. Take one and be satisfied. That is intelligence. First of all there is no need of vagina. But if you want, take one and be satisfied. Why you are searching after dog vagina, this vagina, that vagina, that vagina? Is that civilization?" Expose them like that. "Your brain is filled with so much stool, so we are washing it. What is the wrong there?"
Adi-kesava: Actually they all need brainwashing.
Prabhupada: Yes, "Every one of you require, because your brain is filled up with stool. You have no brain. Brain is covered with stool." What they will answer?
Satsvarupa: That "If I want to have a stool brain, it may be lamentable, but don't force me to be washed.
Prabhupada: It is not force. It is no...
Satsvarupa: Let me remain in stool.
Prabhupada: We are preaching. It does not mean that we are forcing. We are saying that "Your brain is in stool. Wash it like this. If one agrees, he does it. Not that in our movement all world has joined. One who is intelligent, he has agreed, 'Yes.' I am not forcing. If I would have possessed that forcive power, what right you have got to bring me in the court? You are forcing me to stop this. You are forcing. Nobody can force, but you are forcing." You should take this argument and expose them at least in the court, licking of the vagina civilization, like dog. Yes animals do that.
Adi-kesava: I think the more strongly we preach in this way, that we don't try to give in and compromise...
Prabhupada: No, no, no.
Adi-kesava: The more that everyone will hear about this issue...
Prabhupada: We must expose them, that's all. This is our business. This is a good opportunity in the court, so that it will be published. People will know what is our philosophy. Licking of vagina civilization, this. Publish.
Adi-kesava: All right.
Prabhupada: What they have got anymore, this Western civilization?
Adi-kesava: They say that they are all actually in despair. They don't see any hope in the future.
Prabhupada: This is their position.
Hari-sauri: Their only hope in the future is that we'll eat trash, process trash and...
Prabhupada: What is that?
Indian: (Bengali) (break)
Prabhupada: All, let us sit down here.
Hari-sauri: In the room?
Prabhupada: Yes, Gaura-Nitai. Is that argument all right, licking the vagina civilization?
Prthu-putra: Great.
Adi-kesava(?): Very bold.
Hari-sauri: No one's ever talked to them like that.
Prabhupada: But this is a fact. The old man, seventy-five years old, he's going to lick up another vagina in the club. This is your Western civilization.
Adi-kesava: Sometimes in New York... You know we live right next to Broadway. The temple is right next to Broadway. Sometimes in New York we see old, old men...
Prabhupada: And in France it is very... In France you have got.
Prthu-putra: In France, yes. All the prostitution going on around the temple.
Adi-kesava: You see even old, old men going to these clubs.
Hari-sauri: If you can still have sex when you're seventy-five, then you're a great man. Glorified.
Prabhupada: Just see. This is their civilization. In Paris there are so many clubs. The old men, they first of all pay fifty dollars to enter into the club. Then he selects which vagina he will lick up. Then another payment. I know that. (aside No, he can be asked to sit down there.
Hari-sauri: To sit in the room.
Prabhupada: Yes. Actually this is the fact. But they are fools. They still like to lick up new vagina. Exactly dogs. We are restricting that "Give up this business, licking of vagina," and they are seeking up to the point of death another vagina, another vagina, another... Which is better? If we say that "Give up this nonsense business," is that brainwash? And if it is brainwash, it is for good. What is this civilization, who is never satisfied? The same business is going on up to the point of death. Our civilization is: "All right, you are attached to vagina-licking. Do it up to fifty years. Then give it up." This is our civilization. "You are so much accustomed to the vagina-licking business--up to fifty years, so long you are young. Then give it... Don't do it anymore." This is our civilization. And that also, after twenty-five years. For twenty-five years teach him, "It is no good business. Brahmacari. Remain alone. You have got so much botheration." If he's still unable: "All right, take one wife. Be satisfied. Lick up one. And then, at the age of fifty years, give up." This is our... Is that wrong?
Satsvarupa: It's good.
Hari-sauri: It's great.
Prabhupada: Because unless you give up this business of vagina-licking, you'll have to be entangled in this body. Either as a dog or as a hog, as a human being or as a demigod, as a tree, as an insect, it will go on. In this way plead. Let the people understand what we are preaching. Advance this philosophy, widely discussed. Then our success.
Hari-sauri: There's no question this will be widely discussed.
Prabhupada: And... (someone enters) (Bengali) (break) Smelling the aroma, such a nonsense.
Hari-sauri: As you say, just like dogs.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Hari-sauri: Just like the dogs.
Prabhupada: Dogs and all animals, smelling vagina. They think, "Here is real pleasure."
Hari-sauri: There's no need to move around, Srila Prabhupada... (break)
Prabhupada: They're going for vagina and paying heavy toll: fifty dollars for entering the club, then two hundred dollars for drinking. You know this?
Hari-sauri: Yes.
Prabhupada: This is their civilization, vagina civilization. In Florida they go, Miami, to spend money weekly, five hundred, five thousand dollars for naked dance. You know that?
Hari-sauri: Yes. So many places. Las Vegas. Every big city has...
Prabhupada: And Brahmananda told me sometimes they see on the stage a fatty woman having sex with an ass. This is exhibited in Mexico. And they enjoy it.
Hari-sauri: In Europe they have sex fairs.
Prabhupada: Sex fair? What is that?
Hari-sauri: You can go, and they have sideshows, men and women having sex on the stage at regular intervals, and they exhibit all kinds of contraptions that you can use to pervert your sex life even more.
Prabhupada: What they will understand about this Krsna consciousness?
Hari-sauri: There's not very much hope for them.
Prabhupada: Help is for everyone, but if they remain stubborn to their own way of life, then it is not possible. They have to wash the brain. Otherwise it is possible.
Hari-sauri: You explain in the Bhagavatam that everything actually is just an extension of the sex desire.
Prabhupada: That's it.
Hari-sauri: Their whole big cities and so much industry...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: ...and work is just simply...
Prabhupada: For the central point--vagina. Yan maithunadi-grhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham. The other day... Maithunyam agaram ajnah vindati tapan.
Hari-sauri: Rsabhadeva's instructions. (end)
[S.P. Room Conversation, February 19, 1977, Mayapura]
"Don't be a vagina-smelling animal."
Prabhupada: Everywhere. This male and female, nature's gift that is. Therefore tasyaiva hetoh. These things you'll get.
Tamala Krsna: Yes. So why use the...?
Prabhupada: Why you are after these things?
Tamala Krsna: Hm. Wasting human life.
Prabhupada: You'll get woman. So be satisfied, the nature's gift of woman, nature's gift of your position, and utilize your life for Krsna consciousness. Why more and more, more, and naked and this way and that way? The other day what did I say? Vagina-licking civilization.
Bali-mardana: Hm?
Tamala Krsna: Vagina-licking civilization.
Prabhupada: They're spending so much money for vagina-looking.
Tamala Krsna: Oh, that's their whole consciousness.
Prabhupada: Yes. The money is earned with so hard labor and it is spent for vagina-looking.
Tamala Krsna: Polished dog society.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes, dog also smells the vagina, and they also do the same thing. Therefore nature has arranged that dog are smelling vagina on the street. One vagina and three dozen dogs surrounded.
Tamala Krsna: Yes. Vrndavana you see that.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: Now that's going on in America. They are spending money just for that.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: Three dozen men look at one woman, same business.
Bali-mardana: And they make big literatures, magazines, everywhere, all over the streets. They put them in the street...
Tamala Krsna: The big thing now in America, the most popular shop, is called "Adult Books." "Adult Bookshop."
Hari-sauri: "Adult cinema," "adult this," "adult that."
Prabhupada: Topless, bottomless. Yan maithunadi-grhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham kanduyanena karayor iva duhkha-duhkham, trpyanti neha krpana bahu-duhkha-bhajah. Bahu-duhkha-bhajah. Krpana. The rascals. Krpana means non-brahmana, without any spiritual knowledge. They are never satisfied, the vagina business. Trpyanti neha krp-- although it is followed by so much miserable condition--bahu-duhkha-bhajah kandutivan manasijam visaheta dhirah. One who is dhira, sober, he tolerates little itching sensation: "What this nonsense?" And if you practice toleration, there will be no more. Finished. You become liberated. Therefore, from the very beginning of life, childhood, this teach him, that "Don't be a vagina-smelling animal." Brahmacari. Brahmacari guru-grhe vasan dantah. To learn how to control the senses, that is brahmacari. Where is that civilization? So establish. Give them food. Give them shelter. Give them knowledge. That is para-upakara, doing welfare to others. But don't be entangled in vagina civilization. Yan maithunadi-grhamedhi-sukham. It is most abominable civilization, tuccham, condemned civilization.
[S.P. Room Conversation, February 25, 1977, Mayapura]
* THE HARE KRISHNA SAINT TORTURED AND POISONED TO DEATH BY HIS JUDAS DISCIPLES
http://members.lycos.co.uk/prabhupa...sp_poisoned.htm
* MATERIALISTIC SCIENTISTS EXPOSED BY THE HARE KRISHNA SAINT
http://members.lycos.co.uk/spexpose/
* WHAT IS KRISHNA CONCIOUSNESS?
http://members.lycos.co.uk/prabhupa..._kc/what_kc.htm
* PRABHUPADA Your ever well wisher
http://members.lycos.co.uk/prabhupada1/
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Japher
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Ook! Ook! Ack! Ack! Ack!
Jun 2002
time: 05:33
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Is this Fez's DL?
quote:
Prabhupada: Yes. Actually this is the fact. But they are fools. They still like to lick up new vagina. Exactly dogs. We are restricting that "Give up this business, licking of vagina," and they are seeking up to the point of death another vagina, another vagina, another... Which is better? If we say that "Give up this nonsense business," is that brainwash? And if it is brainwash, it is for good. What is this civilization, who is never satisfied? The same business is going on up to the point of death. Our civilization is: "All right, you are attached to vagina-licking. Do it up to fifty years. Then give it up." This is our civilization. "You are so much accustomed to the vagina-licking business--up to fifty years, so long you are young. Then give it... Don't do it anymore." This is our civilization. And that also, after twenty-five years. For twenty-five years teach him, "It is no good business. Brahmacari. Remain alone. You have got so much botheration." If he's still unable: "All right, take one wife. Be satisfied. Lick up one. And then, at the age of fifty years, give up." This is our... Is that wrong?
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Licking what!!!?
If you ack now I will send you a billion dollars!!! I need is your bank account number
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yaroslav
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Madrid, Spain, Europe
Jun 2001
time: 06:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Moti
First you have to stop using your frog in the well logic...
"The frog in the well" logic illustrates that a frog residing in the atmosphere and boundary of a well cannot imagine the length and breadth of the gigantic ocean. Such a frog, when informed of the gigantic length and breadth of the ocean, first of all does not believe that there is such an ocean, and if someone assures him that factually there is such a thing, the frog then begins to measure it by imagination by means of pumping its belly as far as possible, with the result that the tiny abdomen of the frog bursts and the poor frog dies without any experience of the actual ocean. Similarly, the material scientists also want to challenge the inconceivable potency of the Lord by measuring Him with their froglike brains and their scientific achievements, but at the end they simply die unsuccessfully, like the frog.
[Srila Prabhupada from Srimad Bhagavatam 2.5.10]
In the Srimad Bhagavatam [compiled 5,000 years ago] there are descriptions of Nukes:
TRANSLATION
The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: Know from Me that this is the act of the son of Drona. He has thrown the hymns of nuclear energy [brahmastra], and he does not know how to retract the glare. He has helplessly done this, being afraid of imminent death.
PURPORT
The brahmastra is similar to the modern nuclear weapon manipulated by atomic energy. The atomic energy works wholly on total combustibility, and so the brahmastra also acts. It creates an intolerable heat similar to atomic radiation, but the difference is that the atomic bomb is a gross type of nuclear weapon, whereas the brahmastra is a subtle type of weapon produced by chanting hymns. It is a different science, and in the days gone by such science was cultivated in the land of Bharata-varsa. The subtle science of chanting hymns is also material, but it has yet to be known by the modern material scientists. Subtle material science is not spiritual, but it has a direct relationship with the spiritual method, which is still subtler. A chanter of hymns knew how to apply the weapon as well as how to retract it. That was perfect knowledge. But the son of Dronacarya, who made use of this subtle science, did not know how to retract. He applied it, being afraid of his imminent death, and thus the practice was not only improper but also irreligious. As the son of a brahmana, he should not have made so many mistakes, and for such gross negligence of duty he was to be punished by the Lord Himself.
[Srila Prabhupada from Srimad Bhagavatam 1.7.27]
Carry on reading yaroslav your logic has been refuted. |
Are you telling me that there was nuclear weapons before 194x? Where? In the India? How did the English to conquer her them? 
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10-01-2004 02:44
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